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Youthful Offenders? To Slap the Wrist or Kick their butt
Posted by ArsenicCookies • 1/10/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: children, juvenile justice
A typical Saturday morning for my family, debate time! Here was the topic: Do you think youthful offenders get off too easily?
I said yes. I think that in by letting juveniles off with a slap on the wrist or a "kids will be kids" attitude can cause them more damage in the long run. For example, little Johnny Doe is 12 years old, one night he goes out with some friends "skateboarding" and they break into some homes in a newly constructed and vacant community. Little Johnny and friends throw a party there, cause some property damages, graffiti, etc.
The standard punishment is a fine (which more often then not, daddy and mommy pay) and community service. What did little Johnny learn? That mommy and daddy will always bail him out, that the justice system isn't so bad and that he holds the get out of jail free card until he is 18 or he commits a major crime.
I say give the kid some probation using the first time offenders clause (it disappears from their record after successful probation is completed and shows up as arrested but not convicted), have him and his friends help repair the damages and spend a night in juvey hall.
He will always remember that scary feeling of juvey, see the consequences of his actions by repairing it,and have to be on excellent behavior so as not to violate probation and go to juvenile hall for the remainder of his sentence.I think that those lessons will stay with him more in the long run and be more of a deterrent for future crimes.
I understand kids are kids, however one can not deny that the mindset of a 12 year old now days is much more mature than say 20 years ago.
What say you?
User Comments
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You seem to have some confusion about how the system works. If the kid didn't have "some probation", he couldn't be ordered to perform community service. Community service is enforced by being included as a term of probation--and probation for juvenile offenders is typically longer and more exacting than adult probation.
I would disagree that the mindset of a 12-year-old is more mature than 20 years ago. Children that age have certainly been exposed to more and are in more mature situations, but their development hasn't sped up to accomodate that--that's physiological.
I also disagree that there's anything valuable to be learned by a night (or a year, or a minute) in "juvey hall". Something about being beaten and possibly raped doesn't do much to straighten a kid (or adult) out. It's a nice theory that they'll "learn a lesson", but the truth of the matter is that the lessons most minor offenders (adults and children) learn in the prison system are not the ones we want them to learn; instead, they learn the same lessons one learns in a war zone: protect yourself at all costs, the rules don't really have any application to what you have to do to stay alive, and strike before you're struck.-
I'm basing this off of my little brother who did not have probation but had community service. Maybe commonwealth laws are different, but thats what he had.
12 year olds now days are having babies, bringing guns to school, etc. Maybe I am just old school, but I say put the fear in them. Also, I know from experience Juvenile hall for minimum security and maximum security have two separate sets of standards. The possibilities you elude to are more likely to occur in a max facility. -
I wondered whether you were outside the U.S. Here, each state has a different juvenile system--some have a first-offender program like the one you describe, but it operates a bit differently. Others don't even make the "dropping off your record" an option in juvenile cases, because juvenile records can be sealed at 18, anyway. I also think the trend in the U.S. is definitely away from the "boys will be boys" mentality--we have children as young as 10 being tried as adults.
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Well, if I had done something like this at 12, my parents would have seriously kicked my butt. I think kids like the "little Johnny" end up acting like this because the parents take the 'kids are kids' thing too far.
That said, however, I would really not trust the juvey system do a better job. (I dont trust the govt. really :)). Not with my kid and not with anyone elses either.-
I agree.
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very interestig points by all. I will check back in a it, I am curious to see the responses. It's Chuck E Cheese time right now
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No, I do not believe that it's the court's responsibility to punish the children beyond enforcing reparations for damages, etc...
Have you wondered why a higher percentage of youths right now seem to be more aggressive (studies show youth aggression on the rise at younger ages along with risky behavior) while our court system is actually harsher on youth offenders than they were say, 50 years ago?
The difference isn't in the punishment from the court. It's the punishment from the parents.
As I grew up (and got into plenty of trouble) the fear of going to "juvey" did nothing for me. The fear of facing my mother and my father after I got caught doing something I ought not have been doing was both terrifying and mortifying.
As parents do less and less, courts do more and more in their stead. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be broken - but not by exposing minors to violent detention centers. More often than not, they learn more violence from that experience. -
One thing my Grandmother said to my Mother and Me growing up was this:
"If you happen to be stupid enough to get yourself thrown in jail, don't bother calling me up to come bail you out. I won't waste my time or money".
She meant every word and none of us or her children to this day was ever thrown in jail for anything. None of us have a record. I think if children know that their family members got their back, they will do something that they have no business doing. The family should not stand by these children when they do wrong, especially when they were taught right from wrong.
I couldn't help but laugh when I read some years ago that some punk kid went into another country
like Thialand and decided to cause public damage and graffiti to cars that were parked in public.
They found that little fool and gave his ass a public flogging. He then had the nerve to write a book about it, a book that nobody bought. -
All I can say is things are definitely different today than they were in my youth. Not complaining nor do I think we had it better, suffice it to say we were a generation that was handled by rules and adults were still to be feared. Not sure that made Generation X any better. As a matter of fact let me quote what Time Magazine said about us **Standing on Podium**
The perception of Generation X during the late 1980s was summarized in a Time Magazine cover story:[14]:
“ . . .They possess only a hazy sense of their own identity but a monumental preoccupation with all the problems the preceding generation will leave for them to fix . . .This is the twenty-something generation, those 48 million young Americans ages 18 through 29 who fall between the famous baby boomers and the boomlet of children the baby boomers are producing. Since today's young adults were born during a period when the U.S. birthrate decreased to half the level of its postwar peak, in the wake of the great baby boom, they are sometimes called the baby busters. By whatever name, so far they are an unsung generation, hardly recognized as a social force or even noticed much at all...By and large, the 18-to-29 group scornfully rejects the habits and values of the baby boomers, viewing that group as self-centered, fickle and impractical. While the baby boomers had a placid childhood in the 1950s, which helped inspire them to start their revolution, today's twenty-something generation grew up in a time of drugs, divorce and economic strain. . .They feel influenced and changed by the social problems they see as their inheritance: racial strife, homelessness, AIDS, fractured families and federal deficits.
Doesn't sound pretty but, it's better than having your parents as crack addicts no hope and no understanding of how change has passed them by. **getting off my podium**-
Remember that we were the "me generation" before we were Gen X, too.
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If a youthful offender shows signs of poor thinking skills they should be introduced to a course that will help them resolve this. They are out there for adults in Britain in the form of Enhanced thinking skills and Thinking Skills courses. Kids that offend and also those that don't, need help to think about planning to make good decisions and to take in to account the consequences foer their decisions. -
Some of this may be too simplistic. We are living in frightening and unusual times. In my city there is an 11 year old who shot his father's pregnant fiance' last week as she slept. He has been charged as an adult and was placed in an adult jail. They had to roll up the jail uniforms for him since nothing fit this child. The courts are haggling over what to do with him. He is now in a juvenile facility. His father had given this 11 year old a shotgun and ammo as a gift. Does the father not have some culpability in this? We are talking about an 11 year old for heaven's sake! Does he deserve to spend the rest of his life in prison? My heart goes out to the family of the woman shot. She had two children of her own and now they have lost the grandchild she was carrying. The rules applied to us as children don't seem to fit today's scenarios. What to do? -
The above example is as serious as it gets. My example was aimed at early stage, teenage, antisocial behaviour. Guess this kid will need locking up in secure children's unit. Your gun laws are incredible
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