Religious Debate and Discussions
Fear & Obedience in Christianity
Posted by jeremyjanson • 8/07/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS]
Topics: catholic, christian, evangelical christian, evangelicalism, theology, traditional protestant
The Apostle Paul in Romans made it very clear that the 3 most important christian spiritual gifts were "Faith, Hope & Love." On the flip side, however, Christ does state at one point that "those who do my father's will shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven" and the Epistle to the Hebrews uses (almost abuses) fire & brimstone imagery and eternal condemnations.
Many evangelical christians have taken that quote about "my fathers will" to mean that they should, essentially, make themselves vessels to whatever God orders. Traditional Protestants, on the other hand, and most Catholics tend to take a much more freedom oriented view of following the commandments and teachings of Christ and assuming that direct commands are a rare occasion and should not be specifically sought out. This distinction seems to be the main divide among protestant Christians.
What's your view? What's your complaints? Who do you think has it more on target?
"Einstein, don't tell God what to do." -Niels Bohr
User Comments
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Bohr is the most aptly named of all physicists.-
LOL! Thanks for commenting.
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I'm not following you here. Are you saying that Christians shouldn't seek to follow God's commands? Please clarify because I'm probably misunderstanding you.-
No. It's more about basic purpose. Should we live our lives specifically to be obedient, assuming that this is our purpose, or should we take it that God, being largely fond of freedom, should be obeyed on those rare occasions when he commands us (and also the commandments, obviously) exactly because he generally doesn't like doing it.
FYI: it shouldn't be a matter of "seeking." You obey or you don't obey - it really is that simple. Commandments, God's Law, are a little different; they are rules as supposed to orders, and it is a different spiritual gift entirely (Love as supposed to Faith) that allows you to obey them. -
Rare occasions that God commands us? The bible is full of commands. It's rare not to find a command if you read any chapter of scripture.
Is it our purpose to be obedient? Yes. If you are looking for a biblical response here is what the bible says.
2 Corinthians 5:9
Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
The bible tells us over and over to seek obedience and to seek God. Here are a few examples.
Matthew 6:33
"But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Deuteronomy 4:29
" But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.
Psalm 27:4
One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek:That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life,To behold the beauty of the LORDAnd to meditate in His temple.
Psalm 34:10
The young lions do lack and suffer hunger;But they who seek the LORD shall not be in want of any good thing.
Psalm 34:14
Depart from evil and do good;Seek peace and pursue it
Psalm 105:4
Seek the LORD and His strength; Seek His face continually.
Psalm 119:2
How blessed are those who observe His testimonies,Who seek Him with all their heart.
Proverbs 15:14
The mind of the intelligent seeks knowledge,But the mouth of fools feeds on folly.
Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; -
Most of your quotations are more about seeking God then being obedient to him in the strictest sense. Also, an argument can be made that being "pleasing" to God may also mean making decisions and building a life of your own. (See parable of the talents, below.) You're a servant, not an assembly-line worker.
Matthew 25: 14-30:
14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -
See, it can be argued that "obedience" in the strictest sense is like the servant with one talent digging a hole in the ground and shoving his intelligent and all that his Lord gave him in to it to never be seen again.
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Are you trying to contrast adherence to Christian beliefs with a Joan of Arc style "God speaks to me" type of command? I think clarifying that would have saved you and jflower a bit of trouble.-
For the most part, yes, and thank you. Although I also believe that under some rare conditions God might give such a direct command and you should honor it - I just don't believe you should seek it out and certainly don't beileve you should lie to yourself in to believeing you honestly don't like freedom (it's actually a little disrespectful to God to do so, as this is the gift that he sacrificed the most [notably his son] to give you.)
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In response to the verse about pleasing God, you said that it could mean pleasing Him by building a life of your own. I'm not sure how you came up with that, but the bible clearly doesn't teach that Jeremy. A Christian doesn't live apart from God, doing whatever he wants. A christian lives for God, obeying Him out of love. If you look at the context of that verse then you will see what I mean. Look at the verses after v. 9
9Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
11Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
12We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.
13For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.
14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
That last verse says it all. We no longer live for ourselves, but for God. We aim to please Him, also keeping in mind that we will stand before Him at the judgment seat. Verse 9 is not talking about building a life outside of Christ. In fact we live for Him because His love controls everything we choose to do!
The life of a Christian is about taking the narrow path. It's about following Jesus, not following ourselves.
Look at this verse.
Galatians 2:20
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
When someone becomes a christian he no longer lives for himself, but for Christ.
What about John 3:36?
36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
That's pretty clear that not obeying God has severe consequences.
Just to clarify, were you are speaking of a direct command outside of scripture?
I don't believe in direct commands outside of scripture. When I hear people say, "God told me to do that". I know that what they are really saying is that they had a strong feeling to do something and they attributed it to God (or they were on drugs).
I know God works in amazing ways and I do believe he leads us to do many things, but He will always use His word (bible) and He doesn't add to it.
As far as the verses I left about seeking, that was in your response to not seeking to obey.
It sounds to me like you are really wrapped up on "freedom" to the point that you are holding it above other more important doctrines.
As far as the parable of the talents, I don't know how you came up with that interpretation of the parable of the talents. If you read it at face value it says that anyone who doesn't make use of what God has given Him.
Here is a quote that says it better than I can say it.
"Jesus wasn't saying that those who are entrusted with little things will be unfaithful. He's saying that even if you only have a little entrusted to you, you are responsible for it. No matter how much God has given you, you're responsible to give God a return. There are some people whom God has given privilege after privilege, yet they let it all go to waste. Some people with five talents envision themselves as true servants yet are really doing nothing for God. Others have been given very little but use it well. Perhaps Jesus used the man with the one talent to represent the wicked servant to show that the master's anger wasn't related to how much money was lost. The master was angry because the servant wasted his opportunity."
www.gty.org/Resources/Study+Guide+Chapter/2376
Going back to this freedom thing.....
Could you be more specific about what you are talking about? We really aren't as free as you propose we are. God can take our lives at any moment. We are free to obey or free to disobey, and there will be consequences to both. What of the verse I just quoted that says, "the love of Christ controls us"? What about where Jesus told us that anyone who doesn't take up his cross and follow Him is not worthy to be His disciple? -
"Just to clarify, were you are speaking of a direct command outside of scripture?"
Voices. Angels. That sort of thing.
You might want to read VK's post. I think we're in agreement that you should follow the commandments and the wisdom of Christ, but in my mind, that's honor, love, humillity, faith and principle, not obedience. Obedience is sitting around waiting to be told what to do at gunpoint, or in this case, smitepoint. Fear is only useful for clearing the field, it cannot bear fruit.
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
In my translation (NKJV) "obey" is replaced by "believe." Seems to make more sense in context.
"Going back to this freedom thing.....
Could you be more specific about what you are talking about? We really aren't as free as you propose we are. God can take our lives at any moment. We are free to obey or free to disobey, and there will be consequences to both."
The fact of the matter is that God did not just create freedom and authorize and sanctify it to create a mysterious trap for sending people to hell jflower. It has meaning. It has passion. It has purpose. You are right that he is free to take away this freedom, AND HE DOESN'T! What does that tell you about what he finds important?
"In response to the verse about pleasing God, you said that it could mean pleasing Him by building a life of your own."
Did you not even read the parable? It is entirely about the importance of indivdiual decisionmaking and using what you've been given. Further, since when does having a law written upon your heart by love (614 commandments worth) equal obedience? Obedience means throwing away thought and following orders, not simply taming a few bad thoughts and letting the rest run free.
"I'm not sure how you came up with that, but the bible clearly doesn't teach that Jeremy. A Christian doesn't live apart from God, doing whatever he wants."
I'm not saying he does. I'm saying that you've got the relationship wrong and part of the problem is that in an industrial society, workers are so overspecialized that we no longer know the meaning of being a servant. We confuse it with sitting around on an assemblyline with a nail gun putting the exact same bolt in to the exact same model of car for 8 hours a day and then going home and drinking a beer.
"A christian lives for God, obeying Him out of love. If you look at the context of that verse then you will see what I mean. Look at the verses after v. 9"
Actually, according to Paul he obeys him out of faith, not love. But back to the point. "...so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." That doesn't sound like waiting for voices. That sounds like making decisions and receiving the consequences for them.
"What of the verse I just quoted that says, "the love of Christ controls us"?"
Perhaps that it has less to do with obedience and more to do with your honor and respect for Christ. Obedience has nothing to do with love and never can, it is entirely the product of fear. To sit around waiting to be told what to do is the exact kind of thoughtless offering that Cain gave and God rejected.
"What about where Jesus told us that anyone who doesn't take up his cross and follow Him is not worthy to be His disciple?"
Taking up the cross and following =/= sitting around being told what to do by mysterious voices. Taking up the cross means struggle, means pain, means hardship. For you to even associate it with something so absurdly passive is downright insulting.
"Of course we all know that no one can keep the whole law perfectly, which is why we need a Savior."
Not the only reason, but that's another discussion for another time.
"As far as the verses I left about seeking, that was in your response to not seeking to obey."
Obeying and not obeying is a split second decision. There is no "seeking" about it! You cannot "seek" to make a decision that takes half a second. -
Also, if you read the larger sermon that the parable of the talents is included in (Matthew 24 & 25), it starts out with Christ adressing the doomsayers asking him for signs about the end of the world, then goes on to the parable of the wicked servant, then the parable of the virgins of the lamps, and then the parable of the talents, and then the parable of the sheeps and the goats. What all these teachings have in common is their emphasis on the decisionmaking of the individual and living a good, solid, christian life.
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Jeremy,
I think we are on the same page about a good portion of this, but your idea of obedience is vastly different than my idea of obedience. But at this point it is semantics....I think. Yes, I have read the parable of the talents many times. The point of all of the parables you mentioned is that one person doesn't make it and is thrown into hell. It is supposed to point out what not to do.
There are so many verses on obedience that I could not list them all. Here are a few.
Acts 5:29
But Peter and the apostles answered, " We must obey God rather than men.
Acts 5:32
"And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Galatians 5:7
You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Philippians 2:12
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
2 Thessalonians 1:8
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
Hebrews 11:8
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
1 Peter 1:2
according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
We could use a different term altogether....repentance.
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Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus) said there are two commandments "Love your God..." &c. and "Love your neighbor as yourself"-
True, He did say that the whole law was wrapped up in those two commands. If someone follows those two perfectly then they will have kept the whole law.
Of course we all know that no one can keep the whole law perfectly, which is why we need a Savior. -
so why bother with the rest of all that stuff?
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Because nobody is actually smart enough to derive all 612 other commandments from those first 2 on the spot, and to figure out all the time what is best for other people, what is best for God, Jesus, and Holy Ghost, and what is best for their own dignity, and further, if you have principles ahead of time dictating these things, then when you're under pressure and thus vulnerable you don't have to think about them as people who are stressed out and being pulled in an unfortunate direction seldom think well.
Really, the 2 great commandments are primarilly for understanding the other 612 and their intent, not replacing them. Most things we are told to take on faith, but this we are instructed on the reasons for.
A very good example is the terrible tendency of Christian parents to advocate abstinence because of "safety." That is not why Christ advocates abstinence, nor does it even make sense as Christ is honestly kind of a fan of risk-taking (see Luke 14.) But, Christ advocates abstinence to protect dignity, and to bring civility, honor, and true depth and romance to something that, when taken nihilistically, can become crass and degrading.
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True, I agree. Jesus continued to give commands even though He said that the law and prophets could be wrapped up in those two. But when you look at the commandments you can categorize them into laws that reflect love towards others or love towards God.
Agit8r, you're scaring me. I thought you were grandpa!
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Darn, I did it again
Wrong spot
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AH, OK I'm getting two different thread ideas here.
One is the comments a bout "direct commands" from God - like the characters from the old testament received.
The other is about obeying out of fear, VS obeying out of love and respect.
I have always asked why is it that prior to Jesus and even shortly thereafter - there were prophets and men who spoke directly to God, received specific instructions, visions, and other manner of "paranormal" experiences regarding God, but today these similar experiences are regarded as blasphemous or the work of Satan.
I did get one answer (supported by scripture but I didn't write it down D'oh!) that we no longer need such prophets. But it didn't answer the question... "why"? Why wouldn't God till try and communicate with humans directly, I mean, if he loves us so...
The other half - I have always said that the Christian God will/should know the difference between those who are following in earnest, and those who are simply trying to hedge their bets a little, and cover their rear ends.-
You said:
I did get one answer (supported by scripture but I didn't write it down D'oh!) that we no longer need such prophets. But it didn't answer the question... "why"? Why wouldn't God till try and communicate with humans directly, I mean, if he loves us so...
Here is an article that explains the viewpoint that prophesy no longer exists.
www.graceonlinelibrary.org/articles/full.asp?id=40||538
There are 2 different passages that this comes from. The first is:
1 Corinthians 13:8-9 (New International Version)
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
This states that prophesy will cease.
The second is based on Eph. 2:20
Ephesians 2:19-20 (New International Version)
19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
The idea here is that believers from the end of the early church to now have been built upon the foundation of prophesy that was already laid down. -
Those passages could also be interpreted to mean that prophecy will cease when the kingdom of heaven is fully realized. (after Armageddon, after Satan has been cast out etc).
Then again, I have regularly interpreted it to mean that it was a form of religious protection, They couldn't have everyone who has had a vision or prophetic dream/experience being believed, because then it would shatter the solidarity of the new church - particularly if the prophecy went against what they were teaching.
So they designed a way to make prophecies that conflicted with their teachings the work of Satan. -
Or you could say that God doesn't give conflicting messages, so only one can be the true one.
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About your passages, to me they are more a statement about the nature of human beings and the way that knowledge leaves us, prophesy is forgotten, but if your soul speaks right and has the right foundation to start with, you still have what's most important.
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But it doesn't say prophesy is forgotten. It says that it will cease.
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You're attempting to use an English translation to find exact meanings of something written in another language. Further, in Paul's time prophesying was the very active engagement of a person with God speaking wisdom, so it could be said that ceasing and forgetting would be similar here.
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Or you could say that God doesn't give conflicting messages, so only one can be the true one.
From the outside that statement is irrelevant. The Christian religion must protect itself. The best way to do so is to label any conflicting prophecies, ideas, or scientific discoveries as heresy, blasphemous, or the work of Satan. To not cover one's religious backside in such a manner is to allow doubt to creep in to the hearts of the followers.
Besides, there is enough evidence in the writing style/sociological reflection/historical ommittances in the bible that render "the Word of God" as invalid because it is thoroughly tainted by the men who wrote it.
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I believe that we must be obedient toward God.It is not always easy because Satan will always be there to temp us.My deacon used to say"Satan likes to go after baby Christians,but he likes to needle mature Christians as well.-
Is it really so much a matter of obedience, or what obedience means? Saint Paul certainly thought it was the ladder.
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And Abraham thought it was the farmer.
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If you inspect the story of Abraham carefully, you'll notice that faith, and not obedience, is his focus. The Obedience obsession came about later.
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That's not true. Faith and obedience go hand and hand.
Hebrews 11:8 says:
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
This verse links his faith with his obedience.
But I agree that obedience is done out of love, not out of trying to earn a good position. It is done out of the believe that God knows what he's talking about. -
Your very passage makes it clear that the obedience came from the faith, not the faith from the obedience. Obedience without Faith, Hope or Love is worthless, while Disobedience with Faith is impossible and Love without Faith can cover many transgressions.
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Let's see here. God creates me, tells me to love, obey, and worship him, and if I don't I am going to hell. You know, I find it hard to love something that put me in a situation I had no control over in the first place (created me) and starts of the relationship with threats.-
That's part of the reason I don't believe in the traditional interpretation of Hell. Keep in mind that the Gospel, and Christ's teachings, were made in a quasi-Stalinist society with no freedom of speech where everyone was just trying to get by day-to-day and drastic changes had to be made for ANYONE to be happy. Also keep in mind that Christ makes it clear in Mark 3 that you can be condemned eternally BEFORE you die, and to some degree are already in Hell if you are. Christ is purposefully being ambiguous with the status of his parables as metaphor or not in order to get people to actually live their lives in holiness, but God does not send you to Hell. Rather, Hell happens when, during that great "judgement" after you die, everything is made known to you, and God goes over your life with you second by second, detailing everything that was beyond your sight. If you live outside of Christ and have denied over and over, and let your darkness and pride overtake you, you will see that everything you lived was a lie and you cast away your life for no value, rendering your very soul a vessel of emptiness.
This can also happen before you die in some circumstances. Your very life becomes a paranoid nightmare of not even understanding your own eyes, mind or memories, and your torment day and night is your own name being called to you, and the wisdom of your own shallowness and the terror and hateful ways of your acts, and the knowledge that nothing in you is real or holy.
God does love you, but he will not let you escape the truth of what you've done and who you are. No one is entitled to fantasy and lies; Gods respect for the human individual is so great that he will tell you exactly who you are, not sparing one gritty detail or sugar-coding one word. This movie kind of represents what my vision of hell is:
Abre los Ojos, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Your_Eyes_(film)
When you think about it, disobedience to a benevolent, freedom-loving, all-knowing God is living your life in a lie. It is saying "don't bother me with the facts. I know you don't like telling me what to do often and you know everything and you created me but I'm still not going to do the right thing. I will continue to be irrational for no good reason." This is the essence of superficiality and distortion, subjectivity and perversion and pride. -
But isn't it curious that in Proverbs 16:9 it states, "We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps."
So we have no free-will. The lord is the one who determines our steps. If the lord determines you to murder somebody, you will do so. And then if the lord determines that since you murdered somebody, you will go to hell, you will go to hell. Even though you had no control over any of it. You have no more control over the outcome of the game or playing it then you did of being thrown into the game in the first place. According to this verse, we are gods chess pieces, and he is making the moves. But remember, God loves you! (Sarcasm intended) -
Morgant, the bible does say that God determines our steps, but it never says he causes us to sin. In fact the bible clearly states that he is not the author of sin, nor does he test anyone to sin. We do that all on our own. God may uses the wrong choices we have made to direct our path.
James 1:13--Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
God hates sin and he will execute justice and punish sin. But he has provided a way out. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."
What does that mean? God made Jesus sin. He treated Him as if He had committed our sin, even though He never sinned. God punished Jesus for our sin and when we place our faith in Jesus, God looks at us and He sees the righteousness of Jesus. This is referred to as the doctrine of substitution.
Jeremy, hell is a strong reality and even though you may prefer to have a different viewpoint, it is not based on what the bible teaches. Hell is a place where there is fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth. There are so many verses to support this that it's amazing that people who believe the bible ignore what Jesus himself said is a reality. -
@morgan: This is an idea called being "led in the spirit." It's a very complicated and cultural contextual idea that would require far more study to understand. Don't take the psalms in the manner you are taking them because they are the meditations of those already very deep in God. You are only led in the spirit after you have been reborn of water and spirit.
@jflower: What you are talking about is verses in Parables, poetry. Every single one of those verses is Christ SPECIFICALLY speaking in metaphors. Hell is in fact a reality, but not the reality that you think it is.
Also, keep in mind that if no good is achieved through free will and nothing is valuable about it, God cannot be perfectly good for he created it. Reduicio Ad Absurdum. -
Jeremy,
Have you studied the issue of hell in the bible? I'm asking this because what you said is incorrect. First, Jesus did mention hell outside of parables. Here are a few instances:
Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
Matthew 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 23:33
"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
Second, there is no reason to discount hell in the parables. Just because it is used within a story, doesn't make it less true. Jesus used the parables/stories to warn the people of hell and not inheriting the kingdom of God. To make less of that is to water down what Jesus taught.
Third, are you now discounting the entire new testament? Are you saying that all other scripture in the NT, (just because it is not the words of Jesus).....is not inspired? Because the NT is full of references to hell, fire, etc.
In short, the bible is very clear and precise about what hell is. People who don't want to believe it have to read into what is said or simply discount it. -
@jflower: I'm not saying Hell is not true per se. I'm saying that perhaps the description is itself a culturally contextual and pragmatically necessary oversimplification by Him who had no more then 5 days (and hardly non-stop) to explain the entire Kingdom of Heaven to the people of Jerusalem. And I'm not discounting the New Testament at all, I'm merely suggesting that maybe you're reading it wrong.
But yes, Hell is eternal, and it is torment. Just because something is a metaphor does not discount what it describes. It just may not neccesarilly be a place. And it may be a judgement of God in the sense that God made your mind, heart, and soul to contain a black hole, an inescapable, horrifying and paranoid torment from within that, once entered, can never be escaped and never reconciled or rectified. Or perhaps it's a judgement of God in the sense that God recounts your life with you, and if you have survived through protective veils, selfishness, lies, these will be ripped away from you and you will be exposed naked in the light of God. -
Jeremy,
I can't believe you said that Christ oversimplified hell, unless I misunderstood you. But it seems that you did say that. I don't believe that Christ oversimplified anything. If it was simple then it was obviously meant for us to get it, not read into it.
The bible clearly teaches that hell is a place. It's not a matter of "reading it wrong". You have made a fantasy of what you would like it to be.
But that fantasy is not supported by scripture. I noticed that you didn't back your fantasy with any verses. All I can say is that it is real. I'm not thrilled about hell either, but I won't take away or diminish what the bible says it is. To do so is to mislead others from a real warning. To downplay it is to pat someone on the back and tell them it's o.k. when it's not o.k. -
@jflower: THESE WERE WORDS HE SPOKE TO PEOPLE! HE DID NOT SIT DOWN AND WRITE THE GOSPEL! WHY DO YOU HAVE SUCH A HARD TIME UNDERSTANDING THAT? FURTHER:
"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13: 28, KJV)
By your interpretation, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah, MOSES, all these people who gave everything for God and were loved by him dearly are now roasting in Hell. Either a) God is a treacherous ***** with no love for anyone and no principles or b) YOU'RE WRONG!!!!
Look, you can't always say exactly what it is. As a student of science I can tell you that very often we tell freshmen students ALL SORTS OF COMPLETE BS not because we're trying to lie to them but because it will lead them down the path to understanding, eventually. And I'm not patting anybody on the back, I just don't think Hell in your interpretation does anything but turn the gift of Christ in to a supreme tyranny of hate, paranoia and conformity that in fact destroys people by sowing the seeds of judgement and hatefulness in them.
No fruit of the heart can come if there is no love or faith, and I find your ways antithetical to these. Simply saying "the Lord is my Savior," by any interpretation, will not save you on Judgement Day, whatever it is.
Further, if your interpretation was correct, no one could trust God, not now not ever, nor could they call him loving, because he'll ditch you when you're down (Matthew 25: 1-12), betray you whenever convenient (Luke 13: 28) and generally be a pissy little SOB. Nor for that matter can YOU be certain of your salvation, as Abraham was made very confident in God's "eternal" promise. Pardon me if I find this absurd. Hence I have discarded your argument. It's a logical principle called Reducio Ad Absurdum - reduce the argument to an absurdity, then use this absurdity to throw it out. -
Jeremy, you said:
"There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13: 28, KJV)
”By your interpretation, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Jeremiah, Isaiah, MOSES, all these people who gave everything for God and were loved by him dearly are now roasting in Hell. Either a) God is a treacherous ***** with no love for anyone and no principles or b) YOU'RE WRONG!!!!”
You accused me of “not reading it right” and here you didn’t read it right. Look at the verse again. “When ye shall see Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the prophets…..in the kingdom of God (and you are thrust out). In other words, this person/persons will not be in the kingdom of God, while the old testament saints will be in the kingdom of God.
You still haven’t provided biblical substantiation for your interpretation. We can talk until “the cows come home” but in the end it is just opinion unless backed up by biblical support. It saddens me that you are lifting up an opinion over the bible. That is indeed what you are doing since you can’t back up your claim and you don’t bother to address the verses that speak contrary to your opinion.
You said:
”Further, if your interpretation was correct, no one could trust God, not now not ever, nor could they call him loving, because he'll ditch you when you're down (Matthew 25: 1-12), betray you whenever convenient (Luke 13: 28) and generally be a pissy little SOB.” I’m not sure where you getting this. God does not ditch any of those who belong to him. Those who refuse to turn to him he will judge. But those who have given him their lives will never be forsaken. And by the way….who are you to judge God’s character? He is righteous and he has the right to punish sin or sinners however he chooses.
You’ve discarded my argument because it doesn’t sound good to you, not because it lacks solid biblical evidence. I’ll discuss this further only if you back up your arguments with scripture. Jeremy, I consider you a brother in Christ, so if I come across as being hard on you it’s because I care even more for you. I just don’t want to see you headed down the wrong path. -
@jflower: I'm really sorry. Let's end this discussion for a while. I need a break. Too many evangelicals! Thank you for your kindness.
I guess more then anything else, a lot of what I was taught was just so manipulative. I think I need to change congregations. I'm thinking about becoming a Catholic or a Lutheran.
And anyways, I was never saying it was not inspired. I was just saying that practical limitations in the Roman Empire (a society that would've had you executed for writing a story like Jacob and Esau - as it was seen as "indecent") put odd but necessary constraints on the Gospel.
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Jeremy,
No problem. I'm sorry you've been through some manipulative teaching. I hope the best for you in your search for a better church.
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