Religious Debate and Discussions
How do you view death and dying?
Posted by andrasnm • 8/09/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS]
Topics: afterlife, death, dying, heaven, hell
I wrote an essay on my blog about this. please check it out.....
www.andras-nagy.com/wordpress/?p=425
"..My friends have a small boy, aged 6. When his grandfather died his parents chose not to tell him what had happened. Somehow the old man’s death was shunned. It was not something they talked about. It remained a mystery surrounded with scary images and the unknown. Sadly, this is how we approach death in the West. The little boy kept asking about “Tata” and he never got any real answer. He must have missed the old guy, I know, I did. I think an explaination would have been in place...."
"...The reality is that people in the western world walk around with the insurmountable weight on their shoulders, Death. As soon as we are born into this world we are dying. Kids should know that death and birth is a transition like sleeping and waking is, in fact the cycle of life repeats itself in a macro sense as well in the micro sense. But they remain in ignorance, they are kept there. Our materialistic and nihilistic consumer society needs this fear and ignorance. As long as we are in anxiety we are buying stuff, if not for cash, then for credit..."
"... Everything works perfectly in harmony and we should never be afraid to die. Fear is nothing but the ill use of our imagination..."
User Comments
-
Your view of death and dying will be shaped by what you followed in life. Just like the rich man who would not care for Lazarus in turn was discarded in Hades and left as alone as he had been in life, if you do not follow life you will not gain it. -
There are many different fears surrounding death. Some are afraid of pain while dying, while others are afraid of what will happen after they die.
I was with my mom a few weeks ago when she died. Death is not always easy. It was difficult. It was hard. Adults tend to shield children from this because it is a lot for a child to bear.
But my mom went with peace and I let her go with peace. She is with God.-
"Eli Eli Lama Sabbachtani." Even our savior was afraid to die.
-
oops, wrong spot
-
Dammit!
-
-
I view death as a natural and necessary part of the life cycle. Although I certainly fear having a horrendous death, I do not fear what happens afterward (Or as soon as I lose consciousness).
On the flipside, I do believe that humans have a tendency to make the death of another about themselves. After all, the person who died is dead - gone. They don't know what's going on with the family etc. And while it can be painful to lose someone you care about (missing them is natural) I think that most of the fear is related to being forced to deal with one's own mortality - and that frightens people. Even still - people take on the death burden unnecessarily in my opinion. It becomes about them, and not the person who died.
WHich makes sense then, to have plenty of religious ideas and beliefs to alleviate that pain - "They've gone on to a better life" - it's a form of psychological self defense.-
While believing that someone who knows the Lord goes to heaven is extremely encouraging, that belief is not fixed in my mind for the purpose of comfort. I believe it because the bible says it's true.
-
But why does the bible say it's true, and what would you believe if you weren't a Christian? Even as a Pagan I believe that life continues on after death. Partially due to observation, and partially a deep rooted psychological need to know that the person I care so much for isn't simply gone forever.
Stories of life after death permeates almost every single belief system we've ever known. The reason for that is the probably the self defense mechanism designed to protect our psyche from having to fully comprehend the end of life (thus, the end of our own life).
Even those who don't believe in life after death use very comforting ideas to sooth the pain. "They are in less pain now" or "she went peacefully, not in pain" etc and so forth. This is to calm our own fears about death - even if what is being said is factually correct. -
Are you asking why the bible says heaven is true? The bible has a lot to say about heaven actually. It would make sense because it's the place that many will spend all eternity. I've been listening to a message by Randy Alcorn that is really interesting. If you are interested in hearing what he has to say check out this link. He spoke at the conference in 2008 and has two messages listed. I haven't listened to the first but I am currently listening to "Heaven: God's resurrected people ruling his resurected earth.
www.resolved.org/media.aspx
You are absolutely right that most people have thoughts about what happens after death. I think that God put the awareness that there is more after death in us. And I agree that we try to comfort ourselves with phrases such as "she went peacefully", etc.
Death is ugly. It's not something that anyone naturally looks forward to and no one wants to see anyone suffer, much less picture themselves in pain at death. It's agonizing to see someone you love suffer. There were moments the last week of my mom's life that were agonizing, and the last few hours were the hardest in my life. And though it may sound strange, I felt like I was preparing for my own death as I prepared for hers. Though I was not free entirely of anxiety, God gave me an amazing amount of strength and peace. God gave my mom an amazing amount of peace.
I can see why someone might look at that and think it is a defense mechanism, but I know it is much more than that. My faith in heaven and being in the presence of God after death was just as real before someone I loved was taken. The biggest witness in my life to the reality of this belief is the Holy Spirit in my life. I sense God's presence all the time and know that He is at work. -
Yes, however the bible was written by men, who were afraid of their own deaths, and had been taught just like the humans before them about how to ease their fears through self defense mechanisms.
If you mean to say that God convinced Pagans of spirit worlds and reincarnation (who existed long before Christians) so they could be aware that there is an after life - he did a piss poor job then, no? Because what they believe/ed is completely different than what the bible teaches.
Yet the simple biological need for comfort when faced with mortality crosses all borders. -
So it comes down to two things. Is the bible reliable? The second is,"Does someone have the faith to believe?" Skepticism is a natural part of our makeup. Even one of Jesus's disciples (Thomas) was doubtful that Jesus had really resurrected from the dead.
John 20 says
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Jesus Appears to Thomas
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
The thing that many people have a hard time understanding about faith is that it isn't something that is conjured up on your own. The bible says that it is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-10). If someone seeks God and has a true desire to know Him and believe in Him, they can ask and receive what they are looking for from Him.
Matthew 7:7
" Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. -
I want to add one other thing that I was thinking but forgot to add. Faith is experienced through the power of the Holy Spirit. Is it hard to believe on our own? Absolutely! But through the Holy Spirit we hope and believe.
Romans 5:5
and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us
How do I know that God exists, and that He exists in my life?
1 John 3:24
Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. -
@jflower: And there are many forms of faith too. I know for a long time the idea that God would condemn and those sins would have that hefty of a price to begin with troubled me, though I did accept it, and just a few days ago I was guided by the spirit towards a movie (ironically, R-rated, though for valid artistic reasons) that really clarified why God would operate the way he does in this regard called "A Scanner Darkly." Here's an example of one of the mental monologues of the main character in the film:
"What does a scanner see? In to the heart, in to the head? Does it see darkly or lightly? If it does see darkly, can there be any hope for me?"
Also, in more of a Christ-like moment his girlfriend, after bringing him to the NewPath recovery center for his Substance D addiction, the janitors say "another loser?"
And she tells him: "It's easy to win. You will win. Trust me, you will win."
There's another character who is a son of perdition and in the end kills himself as a result of his addiction (Judas.) You never really like the guy much and it actually ends up being one of the funniest scenes in the movie, though it's also a little creepy.
I think sometimes we don't sufficiently comprehend or meditate on "I am Lord of the living, not the dead." -
Jflower - that doesn't address my comment?
Did God tell the Pagans who predate the Christians that reincarnation is what they have to look forward too? If so - does that not send conflicting messages? If so - why would God send conflicting messages?
Or, is it a basic psychological need created by a fear of death? Even Jesus feared death. And the bible tells us that God hates death (he will destroy death - the final enemy). So we are taught that God hates death, Jesus feared death - all of which area reflection of HUMAN fears and characteristics.
I do not think the bible is reliable as the direct word of God though. There are too many "dated" (human based and created) sociological twists to the stories of the bible, and too many factual things ommitted from the bible for me to believe it was written by God.
Where is the mention of Neanderthals and Cromagnans? The humans of different genus that predates modern day humans (modern day humans which Adam and Eve are based on - probably due to a lack of knowledge about the first two types of humans). Where is the mention of dinosaurs and life forms predating mammals? Surely God didn't forget that he created them? But of course humans didn't know about dinosaurs for centuries after the Judeo-Christian religion was started.
Why does the stories of Adam and Eve right through the bible focus on a patriarchal hierarchy - where men must instruct women in religious studies and proper worship? Surely God didn't forget that he could talk to us to, as he had done and does to women throughout history. Surely he didn't create us to be intellectually inferior - we know that for a fact that we are not. Nor are we religiously inferior or less deserving of direct attention and love from the God who created us. And since God doesn't make mistakes - he couldn't have forgotten to include that bit in the bible - so why is it omitted?
Because the men who wrote the stories were raised in patriarchal societies that did in fact consider women to be inferior in all matters, and simply reflected that reality in their religious writings.
They knew no other world in which to base their ideas - they knew nothing of ancient creatures, ancient human species, or of any cultures that considered women to be equals. So the religious texts were written in that context. Certainly God would have clarified these errors if he dictated the bible to the scholars directly. But the errors remain. -
LOL Anok. You want me to answer from A to Z! Haha....sorry, I just don't seem to have the energy lately. I'm sure I could come up with something...but then you would feel obligated to answer from A--Z.
-
Aint that the truth
-
-
People die when they are sleeping. And they wake up when they die.-
You don't have to wait until you die man. You can wake up while you're still alive to a great degree if you'll let yourself.
-
-
I have a little correction to this, Jesus was not afraid to die, he was afraid to suffer, unbearable, pain and anguish. i.e. crucification!
That is a huge difference and you cannot ignore this. Assuming that the biblical Jesus actually lived as it was told later on by the apostles.. -
Is the bible reliable source of the existence of life after death? Of course not! It is absolutely unreliable in many parts (like existence of David and Solomon, the line going from Adam to Abraham, the whole Genesis, etc).
I really love what Isaak Azimov said, that he was non-existent for billions of years before his birth and wasn't troubled by that at all, so what is the difference with not existing after death?-
Was that Isaac Asimov or was that Mark Twain? Or was it both? -
How could the line going from Adam to Abraham be unreliable? Adam is the father of all humanity, and otherwise, we really don't know anything about him. To say such a thing is to claim that there is no father, none. But beyond this, if "the world was created in 7 days" is all you got out of Genesis, you really missed the point. In fact, strictly speaking, Genesis never even specifically says it is literal! As for David and Solomon, maybe that just goes to show how limited our own ability to look back 3000 years really is, because a lot of other stuff in the bible has been confirmed, at least in the histories.
And changing the subject, does it help that heaven isn't exactly like earth? -
[Genesis never even specifically says it is literal!]
And Jeremy Janson never specifically says that he doesn't rape children. -
Issac knows differently now.
-
@jflower: LOL!
@vK: Yes, but most of the bible is allegory of what sort or another and while it is never specified that Genesis is allegory, it's honestly something that, back then, they probably didn't really care about and had no way of really exploring anyhow. -
How do you know what's allegory and what isn't? I mean, the English version is a translation of a translation, so that doesn't help.
-
@vK: Later English versions were translations straight from the original, but beyond that.
Much of the time you don't, but most of the truth that the bible communicates is about man and God, and man and good, and man and evil. These things you don't need literalism for, and certainly the main point of Genesis. I suspect, however, that the sheer level of sacrifice seen in the Gospel indicates that these people did believe in eternal life, so while the exact literal existence of Hell is debatable, the existence of Heaven is not.
Beyond this, a God that will preserve every atom and electron in the cosmos but will not preserve what he has stated is his most precious possesion on Earth (a human being) would be a very inconsistent and illogical God, one that our intensely logical universe would likely have not been created by, nor have attempted the gospel, itself a very logical and orderly exact fulfillment of prophecies and standards. Further, the way it is referred to over and over again combined with the simple fact that all things of this world pass away indicate that Christ could not have been using it as a metaphor. But yes, you do have to analyze bit by bit like this, don't let anyone deceive you in to thinking that discipleship is not hard work.
-
Add Your Comment
Login to leave a message.
