Religious Debate and Discussions
when and why and what turned you away from religion?
Posted by dsriharsha • 4/29/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS]
Topics: agnostic, atheist, experience
This question is specifically aimed at voodoo, anok, siuil and other non believers.
The title says it all. what's your story? what set the ball rolling?
User Comments
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Er, well, I never really bought into religion wholeheartedly. Even when I believed in God and was a Christian and all that noise, I committed blasphemy all the time. I used to say "Smod" instead of "God" in a mocking tone. I was only like 7 or 8 at the time.
Eventually, I began thinking and I realized that religion didn't make any sense at all to me. I'm not sure what exactly sparked it all, but it wasn't anything traumatic or sudden. -
hmm...well I wasn't brought up to be religious but when I was about 9 my best friend was a Catholic and so I started getting interested in Christianity and reading a children's bible despite my incredulity at her beliefs (I remember her telling me that god was everywhere and in everything and I said "So god is in this railing?" "yes" "so right now I'm hitting god? am I beating god up right now?"). Then I went to a christian school and believed in god for about 4 months before I decided it was all a load of theatrical rubbish! -
I think the easiest way to get turned away from the Christian religion is to study it's history, ie it's actual history contrasted to its purported history. Facts do tend to get in the way of the nice clean history they teach you on Sunday.
For example, the first appearance of winged angels in the Bible occurs while the Hebrews were under subjugation and influence of the Phoenicians. And guess what? The Phoenicians' pagan gods all had wings! In fact the historical record indicates that the Hebrews began as any other polytheistic Semitic religion, with their own tribal deity who even had a wife-deity called Ashira (look it up!). If you read the early parts of the OT with this in mind it really starts to feel like there is a tacit recognition of polytheism. And compare the story of Noah's flood to the story of Gilgamesh or Deucalion. I could go on and on.-
"Facts do tend to get in the way of the nice clean history they teach you on Sunday."
There are so many aspects to history though, and I think, as you study the human story, you just come to accept that human beings are imperfect, selfish, and corruptible, and as such NO institution can ever do without the kind of stuff you are describing. In general, I think the story of the church may be actually slightly better then what some people suggest in secular histories, especially with regards to the story of Bloody Mary, which is treated as religious persecution but really had more to do with treason against England then religion, as at that time the Vatican was very much still a political power that was playing England against Spain and getting a lot of good people killed through warfare.
But it is interesting that Abraham refered to the pagan gods as "their Gods" and as such was actually kind of a Unitarian. It is not until the New Testament and John the Baptist that you get "Those who believe in Him will have eternal life and those who do not believe in Him eternal punishment." (John 3:18, NKJV)
Anyways, I'm sorry that you've been so turned off. But maybe just trying looking for the other side of the story. Peace out. I'm getting out of here. I just couldn't help but reply to this particular well thought-out, deep, rational complaint.
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I just think that religion does not make sense. You are using the popular Hollywood assumption that all people are born Christian/Muslim/other faith. -
I'm now 73 and very happy to be a non-believer - so much more sense in the Universe and life.
I have to say that as far as I know, trhree generations of my family before me were all atheists (or agnostics) and lived good spiritual lives (yes, for me spirituality doesn't connect with Holy spirit or God, except as a concept or meme).
Bur my parents insisted that I read the Bible and literature for and against religion. They wanted me to be able to make an informed decision - and I made it - and lived happily ever after! -
When my oldest son was born I went to my church (Catholic) to get him baptized and I was told by the priest that since I was unwed, and my son was black (yes I am SERIOUS), that the church would never accept either of us and was told not come back.
Haven't stepped foot back in one. -
As a Deist, I can't speak entirely as a non-believer, but will say that I turned away from organized religion because it violated my personal sense of morals/ethics--that while religions profess valuing life and dignity, they spend the the vast bulk of their energies in destroying such-
Agi8r do you believe in heaven and hell? And if you do where you think you are going? -
@jflower: I already know his answer to this. You're not going to like it.
@agit8r: You know my stand on this stuff, but if you'd like, you could read my reply to diablocomix. I think it also pertains to you.
@All: Sorry. I just saw jflower here and felt like I needed to step in to keep everything civilized. Carry on. -
which reply?
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The reply indented directly below yours.
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@JF36: i believe that all spirit energy returns to it's source, whether our human consciousness accompanies such, i am not certain. In that so much of our conscious existance is caught up in the affairs of this life, i don't know how much could remain.
@JJ, I mean life in the broader sense. In that of spiritual life, and walking an ethical path. -
@Agit8r: Not sure what you're responding to. Enlighten me in my shoutbox.
@jflower and everyone else: Carry on, nothing happened here, not the place for combative side threads. -
I was replying to your reply to Diablocomix which you referred to in your response to my initial comment--which I assumed to be in response to my comments regarding "life and dignity," as that referred to response spoke about the loss of life... I lose track...
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It was, and my point is that there actually have been some very good Christians and most of the bad Christians are the product of something in no way, shape, or form unique to, or even more common, among religion, which is the tendency of the powerful to exploit anything they get their hands on. Be it patriotism, which I know you love and is also sometimes called "the last refuge of the scoundrel," religion, human merit and individualism, collectivism, honor, freedom, anything at all people will exploit it. May I remind you that in those dark ages, most Western Europeans could not even get their hands on a bible in their own language because of a translation ban by the Catholic Church!
But what is true to the Church, and is far more common today, is people like Mother Teresa and the various former criminals who have brought themselves back entirely, the drunkards who have given up alcohol, great inspiration of every kind, from arts to charity to fighting the good fight to philosophy and science, and a lot of people who live their lives truly well.
I know of Georgia Tech students who have 18-credit hour schedules and impressive ambitions but still find time to tutor children for 10 hours a week, and they're some of the happiest people I know of, and I know of people who find great security and joy and purpose even in the greatest tribulations through God. These things I haven't just read about - I've seen them. If that's not about life and dignity, I don't know what is. -
" far more common today, is people like Mother Teresa "
as in absolute volume of such people? ...or like a ratio of all religious people worldwide? -
Ayeyayay I was gonna stop replying!
In terms of a ratio, which of course also means in absolute terms. -
not offset by the Taliban, child soldier recruiters and the other religious civil war attrocities in Africa, hate crimes in Europe and elsewhere, etc?
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"The hearing of the gospel involves the hearer in responsibility. It is a great privilege to hear the gospel. You may smile and think there is nothing very great in it. The damned in hell know. Oh, what would they give if they could hear the gospel now? If they could come back and entertain but the shadow of a hope that they might escape from the wrath to come? The saved in heaven estimate this privilege at a high rate, for, having obtained salvation through the preaching of this gospel, they can never cease to bless their God for calling them by his word of truth. O that you knew it! On your dying beds the listening to a gospel sermon will seem another thing than it seems now."
--Charles Spurgeon-
jflower, why don't you focus on the gifts of Life instead of the threat of Hell?
And anyways, I've been doing some studying lately, and death = judgement may actually be a myth. Christ makes it clear, in Mark 3, that someone can in fact be condemned when they're still alive. There are walking damned among us. And the condemned, they don't seek the Gospel. They don't yearn for it, they see it even as evil. Christ very specifically says that all those who ask will be saved, and in Mark 3, we see what the condemned do when they see grace or think about Christ: nothing, except condemn the speaker.
But consider this:
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." (John 3: 19-21, NIV)
People condemn themselves. They deprive themselves of God, not the other way around.
Not once does the rich man (Luke 16) ask for the salvation of God - the only mention of Moses and the Prophets is by Abraham.
But beyond that, don't you think this is the wrong time and place for this discussion? -
Jeremy,
You said: jflower, why don't you focus on the gifts of Life instead of the threat of Hell? I don't focus on hell. Most of what I say never comes close to talking about hell. But mentioning hell is not taboo....especially when participating in a religious debate discussion.
Besides, it's like telling someone who is standing near a drowning person to forget about safety and look on the bright side. That's not loving, nor is it being positive. To not warn someone about hell is selfish. People who refuse to talk about hell usually do so because they A) don't believe it or B) are more concerned about how the other person will feel about them. People don't want others to think they are mean, cruel, or unloving. It's usually the fear of man that keeps someone from sharing the truth.
I agree that someone can be condemned while they are alive. Our future is already known to God. But there is always a chance for someone to repent and turn to God.
To address your other comments:
You said:
But beyond that, don't you think this is the wrong time and place for this discussion?
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@jflower and everyone else: Carry on, nothing happened here, not the place for combative side threads.
My response: Jeremy this is a religious debate discussion board, therefore topics such as these naturally come up. I'm not combative, nor have I been accused of being combative by anyone else from this group. I'm assuming that VK, who is the moderator, would delete any comments that he found offensive or inappropriate. I have the kindest of intentions here. -
@jflower: "My response: Jeremy this is a religious debate discussion board, therefore topics such as these naturally come up."
It is, and you should've posted a separate subject. There's a time to respect privacy, just as Christ also respects the rights of the damned. I'm sure if you create a separate thread, people will see it. I was not trying to accuse you of being combative, but this was the wrong place.
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!t's rather funny that the discussion, named "when and why and what turned you away from religion?" turned into exchange between believers about hell, afterlife and such.
Here are my two cents: I don't believe in the afterlife. This automatically takes away the need for to even discuss hell, heaven, etc. In other words, first I would like to see you, believers, present your arguments for existence of afterlife. After that we can talk about what happens there, although nobody ever came back to enlighten us.
And, I'm sorry if it offends anybody, but I consider the concept of hell to be, to put it mildly, rather stupid.-
@Al, true, I did veer off the original subject, but if we look at all other discussions here, most have veered off in some way. It's pretty natural for that to happen as one idea leads to another. Alexeiz I respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe and I am not offended if you think the belief in hell is stupid. And I can't prove hell to you, apart from the bible, as you already know. I don't put stock in visions/dreams/light at the end of the tunnel stuff. I still have every confidence in a heaven and hell, based on my belief in the authority of the bible. One day we will all be enlightened as to the details of life after death.
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@jflower36 - I'd like to make a distinction - believing in something I consider "stupid" doesn't mean I think that the person is stupid at all. In other words, I respect everybody's right to believe in whatever they want to and, if need be, will fight for this right. It doesn't mean that I have to respect the beliefs themselves.
And, no need really to repeat, the Bible doesn't prove anything to me or for you. What it proves that the writers were outstanding people in their own right, but possessed no more knowledge about anything than was available at the time, which wasn't a lot. -
@alex: I would debate you on this:
"What it proves that the writers were outstanding people in their own right, but possessed no more knowledge about anything than was available at the time, which wasn't a lot."
Considering how many people, even atheists like NP, still turn to the Bible for wisdom, good speculation and exploration, and knowledge of humanity, which is, in the end, what the Bible is really about, I would say it is still by all objective measures one of the, if not the, greatest literary works ever and certainly among the most life-changing and informative, even among nonbelievers from John Lennon to Jack London, Ray Bradbury and E.M. Forster, great artists (and atheists) all inspired by its' supreme wisdom. What is wrong, however, with evangelicals (not evangelists mind you) is that they don't realize that the Bible is not the source of all infinite and perfect knowledge but the very specific story of God and man. God would never give us everything, for it violates our very character. -
Jeremy Janson: The fact that many people turn to the Bible as a source of wisdom means nothing to me or many other atheists. It's like saying that suicide is the most popular form of death in a certain age group. It just doesn't persuade.
FYI, when I need wisdom, I consult my friends and parents. -
Al,
No worries, I knew that you weren't making a statement that I was stupid, or anyone who believes in heaven/hell. I absolutely agree with the concept that you stated, "I respect everybody's right to believe in whatever they want to and, if need be, will fight for this right. It doesn't mean that I have to respect the beliefs themselves." I happen to also believe that the biblical writers were inspired by God and that the bible holds authority.
Jeremy,
To be inspired by the bible as literature, and yet not be changed by it is one of the most dangerous places to be. God holds everyone accountable for what they know. Better not to know and reject than to know and willfully reject. And by the way, you are off the topic, Jeremy
Oh wait....did one idea lead to another?
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@jflower: Actually no, I'm responding to a particular point from Alex. My point about people using bible as literature is that it is testimony to how powerful the spirit and the works of God are, that even Lucifer himself works within God. To me, this inspires awe. End of story. I'm not responding to the rest of your comment. If you want to talk to me about that, start a new thread or use my shoutbox.
@VK: These people have no reason to hold a bias. Atheists, not believing in God, have no reason to subjectively favor the Bible over the Quran, Modern Literature or any other document, but despite such objectivity, they generally do, thus contradicting:
"What it proves that the writers were outstanding people in their own right, but possessed no more knowledge about anything than was available at the time, which wasn't a lot." -
Jeremy,
You can't have it both ways. You complained that I was off topic but it's acceptable for you to be off topic? Or acceptable to respond to something that's off topic? Anyway....I generally let things go but it really irritated me. I hate double standards. I also don't like it when people tell me what to do and they have no authority to do so. End of vent.
I'm not sure what you meant about Lucifer working within God. Do you mean working within God's authority?
As far as not responding to the rest of my comment...that's fine. I'm not sure what you aren't responding to....because you didn't respond
With all that said....let me just give you a hug to prove that I'm not mad at you -
[I'm not sure what you meant about Lucifer working within God.]
God is clearly the uke. (Look it up.) -
O.k.....I looked it up and dictionary.com says it means to vomit. What is your point?
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@jflower: Last response. "I'm not sure what you meant about Lucifer working within God." Romans 9. Also Romans 13: 1: "...for there is no authority except that which God has established." Think about it this way: If God didn't want Lucifer to exist, or have ability, or be able to do harm, he has the power to take it all away in an instant. But he doesn't.
I'm not sure what VK is saying about the "uke" either.
I'm not responding any further. If you want to speak to me further about this (and I didn't read your last response in full, I just noticed VK's response) you will need to use my shout box which is open to you anytime. -
Jeremy,
O.k., so you did mean that he works under God's authority. I don't disagree.
Darn, you didn't read my response in full so I guess you never got my hug. Oh well -
I was turning to "Satan works within god" to make it sound like Satan sticks it in God's pooper. Do I have to spell my horribly offensive jokes out?
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We see where your mind is......
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I always thought it was short for "ukulele."
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