Political Discussions
105% of population registered in Indiana????
Posted by csiunatc • 10/09/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: acorn
Foxnews just reporting that an indiana county has 105% of its population registered to vote.
Oh, did anyone forget to check what Acorn has been doing in that state?
At this point, all the Acorn registrations needs to be thrown out summarily.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to take everyone in that organization and lock them up until after the election.
User Comments
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Got any legitimate sources?
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Yeah, A link would help. I'd like to just say that Fox news isn't that great with math and all...so maybe that's where the 105% came from -
Sources for some are mere "gottcha" technicalities. It's not fair of you to ask, Ben. It's even meaner of me to point out that this "story" is not even on Fox. I did, however, find one Blogspot blog purporting to have done this math for Marion country (advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2008/10/105-of-eligible-voters-in-indianapolis....).
Look, this is the one swing state where McCain is still ahead (www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/in/indiana_mccain_vs_obama-...). Is the point of this "story" a preemptive Republican Whine Fest for when Obama takes it too? -
OMG MArk, from that firts link:
According to STATSIndiana, In 2007, Indianapolis/Marion County had an estimated population of 876,804. Of that number 232,607 were below 18 years of age, for a total of 644,197 people in Marion County/Indianapolis over 18 and thus eligible to vote. (Indiana allows felons to vote as long as they are not incarcerated).
So we have 644,197 people eligible to be registered in Marion County/Indianapolis, and 677,401 people registered. Congratulations go to Indianapolis for having 105% of its residents registered!
Yes, because from 2007 to right now, the end of 2008 I'm sure NO ONE has turned 18, or moved into the state. Jesus people. -
I haven't found it online yet, It was breaking news at the posting. But the numbers came out of the state themselves. and dividing registered voters with eligible voters isn't that hard...
And Anok Are you going to claim that its not strange to have even close to 100%... did you forget what country this is?
But it's Ok. .Acorns illegal activities favor Obama, so I'm sure none of you have a problem with it. -
I think CSI has a thing about Acorn (www.acorn.org/). Second time (at least) he's mentioned them on boards recently. When I try to find stories alleging fraud on their part, all I turn up is right-wing blog stuff, no serious news sources. One exception: recent story of a raid in Nevada, though even there it's not clear that Acorn is trying to do anything wrong (voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/07/acorn_nevada_offices_raided....). Of course, it is important for each state to have decent systems in place. Watching over them is the good right of citizens. Making unsubstantiated charges is not.
One problem for McCain this year: new registrations favor Obama (www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/05/AR2008100502524.ht...).
Another problem: the economy has become so bad that it might let Obama run away with this election. There might be a landslide (www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14413.html). In this context, it's only natural for some Republicans to see enemies everywhere (www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/violent-rhetoric-demonizing). -
Yes, it is odd - except that the site said 100% of eligible voters were registered, not 100% of the population.
We have nearly 100% of eligible voters registered where I live, too. Doesn't mean they all come and vote, though.
On thta note, I think the credibility here is utterly lost because:
1) Unsubstantiated claims are being made,
2) Misreading or misinterpretation of what the numbers mean (from the blog post, anyway)
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4) it's not likely to be true, anyway.
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Obama run away with the election, yes as in an organization he has prior connections to running election fraud. Sure, if you let fraud go unchecked, it could be a landslide for sure.
No credible sources? how about every news outlet in the courty? I"ts been on local news here and in Jersey for sure. Hell this is even reported on in Sweden. -
14 states investigating voter fraud. I'm thinking this is a little more than unsubstantiated.
Hope they seize their books, of both ACORN And all the smaller organizations that they control. Would be very interested to see what they have been doing with their money. -
Ben Smith on Acorn: www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Two_kinds_of_fraud.html
He points out that when we look at this "marginal" story, we need to keep in mind the difference between voting and registration. If any of this registration has occurred, it's been so workers could look better. It doesn't amount to voter fraud. He took his example from the New York Post and mentions that this is a story some Republicans are trying to make a big deal out of.
I note that CSI has still not offered links to credible sources. Dunno why I should do all the work for his allegations. -
If anyone is unsure why this Acorn thing is now a big hooplah- let's take a look:
blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/10/acornproject_vote_voting_drive.html
First, McCain's reaction to Acorn:
"ACORN is one of the largest radical organizations in America that represents another questionable association of Barack Obama's.
And, what Obama's ties with Acorn is:
WASHINGTON--In 1992, Barack Obama worked for Project Vote for about seven months; now Project Vote and ACORN--a coalition of community organizations serving low income families--
Now, sloppy work and/or possible fraud aside, this is another attempt as painting Obama as a "radical", along with helping poor communities upgrade their education "radical" by McCain's standards, and, having served on a board with Ayers so many years ago - this is just more smear.
If Acorn is doing something wrong, their facts will be checked - but getting the registrations out to people who are often underrepresented in politics is not "radical".
McCain's elitism is showing
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Plus Acorn has black people on their home page.
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Ouch Mark...OUCH
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Plus Acorn has black people on their home page.
That means they're elitist, I think.
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Tens of thousands of eligible voters in at least six swing states have been removed from the rolls or have been blocked from registering in ways that appear to violate federal law, according to a review of state records and Social Security data by The New York Times.... because Democrats have been more aggressive at registering new voters this year, according to state election officials, any heightened screening of new applications may affect their party’s supporters disproportionately.
www.nytimes.com/2008/10/09/us/politics/09voting.html?partner=permalink&expr...
The article notes that the purging does not appear linked to a political party, but it is nevertheless illegal and will likely disproportionately affect newly registered democrats.
Does this type of voter fraud upset you, csi, or are you only angry at the kind of manufactured voter-fraud-story you (allegedly) saw on Fox News; you know, the kind that appers to benefit democrats? -
Following up on my earlier post, here's another attempt at voter disenfranchisement:
Fliers warning that people with outstanding warrants or unpaid parking tickets could be arrested if they show up at the polls on election day appeared recently in predominantly African-American neighborhoods of Philadelphia. Zach Stalberg, the president of the nonpartisan watchdog group Committee of Seventy, suggests that a Republican Party supporter may have posted the fliers in an effort discourage voters.
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95509946
Your thoughts, csi? -
Here's another aspect that hasn't been addressed - Acorn has been doing this for over ten years now, without a problem. Now all of a sudden there are investigations?
Let me share something about voter registration problems that you may or may not be aware of. Do you know what entity makes the most mistakes in voter registration?
The DMV.
Every year, and every election in that year in my hometown, 80% of registrations done at the DMV are absolutely 100% done improperly, or not at all. I can't tell you how many voters I have had to turn away because they were not registered properly because they did it at the DMV.
If they get your information right, they often do not get it to the registrars on time, leaving hundreds, and thousands of people without the ability to vote in the election that is happening at that time. They are only slightly worse than some of the other entities outside of the registrars office that also do voter registration.
This seems more and more about smearing than anything else, the more I read. -
Voter suppression is a much more real and scary concern. Today's (10/9) broadcast on DemocracyNow.org had almost a full hour on the subject. Good, but troubling, stuff. And non-partisan - Greg Palast is no fan of the Democratic Party, especially in New Mexico.
Of course, I don't expect CSI to lower himself by reading from Democracy Now, but the rest of you might find it interesting. -
If Acorn can get the entire roster of the Dallas Cowboys football team registered to vote in Nevada, they can do anything.-
You'd have to wonder how stupid these people are to pick those names to begin with.
I mean, if someone turns in a William Gates, Denzel Washington, or any other big name registration to me, it is going to stand out no matter how perfect it's filled out.
Talk about picking the wrong names to mess with.
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105% sounds plausible if you include postal ballots from those overseas eg military personnel and ex pats. Did they factor this in?-
Excellent point.
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This thread wasn't motivated by an interest in facts.
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Ah...
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Why do you hate supplying links?
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It actually looks like the facts are bearing this one out: www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/09/acorn.fraud.claims/index.html-
Thia is the part you need to look at though:
There has been no evidence of voter fraud yet, because voters have yet to go to the polls. But elections officials say they will be sending their information to prosecutors, who will determine whether any investigation will begin.
And he's right. Unless they intend to and can get however many people to pretend to be the people on the cards to go in and fraudulently place votes - this is a non issue.
Registrations get messed up, or are falsely filed more than you would think.
Does anyone have any proof that there is a conspiracy to get voters in with fake ID's or to pretend they are the people on the cards in the polling places, on Nov 4th? -
"And he's right. Unless they intend to and can get however many people to pretend to be the people on the cards to go in and fraudulently place votes - this is a non issue."
This statement strikes me as patently ridiculous. If voters don't show up at the polls, then it's a "non-issue" whether or not an organization knowingly submitted thousands of false voter registration forms to the election board?
I was a deputy registrar and an election judge--I don't have any illusions about either the errors or the fraud that occurs. But I'm hard put to see any LEGITIMATE reason an organization might want to create thousands of phony registrations and submit them...whether or not there's a "conspiracy" to get voters to pretend they are the people on these cards (and I have to assume that there is, because otherwise that would have been a big old lump of wasted time forging all those forms), it's still dishonest, and it's still a crime (I do not know where this reporter got his/her information, but I am an Indiana attorney and I can assure you that several clear crimes have been committed here. If you'd like to see for yourself, the Indiana Vote Fraud Statutes are here: law.justia.com/indiana/codes/title3/ar14/ch2.html ) -
In one of teh articles up above, one of the workers admitted to sitting around, making up cards because she was paid by the hour.
I don't think this has the intent of swarming polls with illegal votes - but rather, you had either sloppy, or bad employees behaving in unethical ways.
Fire them, and give them the fine.
But no, it's not voter fraud unless it happens at the polls. -
Anok, did you read the statute? It's called "Vote fraud" and one of the provisions says: "Sec. 2. A person who, knowing the person is not a voter and will not be a voter at the next election, applies for registration or procures registration as a voter commits a Class A misdemeanor."
There is another provision that makes it a felony to "(1) Conspires with an individual for the purpose of encouraging the individual to submit a false application for registration."
I can't begin to imagine where the idea that vote fraud occurs only at the polls comes from, but the language above is directly from the Indiana Code, which seems to me the best source of what the Indiana law is, being that it's...the Indiana law. -
I forget that state laws vary for voting.
Where I am, if the card isn't valid, it just gets thrown away.
In any case - fire the people, and give them a fine. At the moment, it's still unsubstantiated, no charges have been filed on anyone. This organization has been at this for over ten years - I highly doubt their in some conspiracy cahoots to get Obama fraudulently elected. Sounds like negligence on behalf of the organizations regional boss, though.
Fire him too. -
You folks kill me... A lawyer provides a reliable link and then explains the state laws
I'm still waiting for the link that proves 105% of voters in Indiana are registered. I'm also waiting for some sort of proof that voter fraud reaches the numbers it would require to throw an election one way or another.
So far, this right wing cry of "massive voter fraud" hasn't panned out. It never does. No one can show any election that's ever even been close to being thrown by voter fraud.
Widespread voter fraud is a total myth.
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You folks kill me... A lawyer provides a reliable link and then explains the state laws
"but I am an Indiana attorney and I can assure you that several clear crimes have been committed here"
and you still insist on sipping your kool-aid and puffing hard on the bong.
Wow.. all you need now is a bag of Oreros and you'll be all set for "The Anointed Ones" win...-
This is about voter registration irregularities. There is a difference between that and voter fraud. I'm not saying any irregularities in registrations are right. But it is important to keep the difference in mind.
If people are uncovering invalid registrations, that might just be evidence of the system working. I'm glad to see this stuff play out before the election. Let's just hope legitimate registrations don't get purged in the process. And let's hope there is no intimidation of voters on Nov. 4th.
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@wizz, Focus man, Focus... I know your ability to comprehend the facts in complex discussions is sometimes strained, but if you want a link so bad, go buy one... I'm sure you could find one that says whatever you want it say. My comment was concerning Tiffany's post, NOT the person who started the thread.
@mark, Let me think about this, you (History Teacher) call them irregularities... Tiffany, "I am an Indiana attorney" calls them crimes.... Hummm. Sorry Mark, you are out of there!-
Assuming you're right, is it the same level of crime as voter fraud? Cite Tiffany all you want, but so far she's just cited CNN. What's the difference between these stupid registrations and actual voter fraud? That's the only point I'm trying to make.
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@mark, Assuming I'm right? You are questioning the "Level" of crime now? Not only did she cite CNN, she quoted you the law from Indiana... You sir, have lost your mind.
"Class A misdemeanor" or "felony" it is called breaking the law... And if the tables were turned you would be screaming bloody murder... There is your point! -
Since when is it unusual to ask about levels? Presumably you are familiar with the concepts of misdemeanor and felony. You've probably also heard of the difference between first degree murder and manslaughter. More to the point, an election hasn't been stolen. There's not even proof of intent to do that. From my point of view, it looks like some people trying to over perform in the registration area. But who knows? Has there been a verdict here?
Now if your worst fears are confirmed true, that's a bad thing. No doubt. Course it would also raise questions in my mind about the registration process. Only that process seems to be catching these things. -
Yes, mark I'm well aware of the levels of law and crime... What I find interesting is your position on all of these problems in Ohio and Indiana.
It's is sad that your hatred for the current administration and for McCain/Palin ticket has blinded you to a very serious and potentially dangerous practices of individuals attempting to sway the elections. Wrong is wrong, regardless of who is doing the act. -
I know what your comment was about. Despite what you obviously believe, being a liberal doesn't mean you're a freakin' moron.
My point is that all of this "voter fraud" panic is BS. And, unlike the poster who started this thread, I'm willing to prove it:
McClatchy (www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/53790.html):
John McCain's campaign charged Friday that a liberal-leaning voter registration coalition is seeking to "steal votes" in next month's presidential election and alleged that Democrat Barack Obama has had a long and "intimate" relationship with the group.
Republicans have leveled similar allegations against the coalition known as Acorn in every election since at least 2000, but they have yet to produce proof that the group poses a threat to election integrity.
In its latest attack on Acorn, the McCain campaign provided no evidence that registration shenanigans by Acorn workers were more than an attempt by low-wage canvassers to meet daily quotas by filling out application forms with names from phone books or pro-football lineups.
Pretty much the definition of a baseless allegation. -
@AmmoBob: You would do well to stop imputing motives to me. Quite simply, I have not seen enough evidence yet to believe the story has legs. If I do, then I'll sing a different tune. Only it will still not be about Obama, who is not running that organization or even working with it.
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Mark, I also provided a link to the Indiana statutes. Depending upon whether it's a straight false registration or there is "conspiracy" or some other some other twist involved the crime may be a misdemeanor or a felony. Note, though, that Indiana has multiple classes of misdemeanor, with Class A being the most serious (and providing for up to a year in jail).
All of these things are covered under the statute headed "Vote Fraud" and classified as such.
Note also that "conspiracy" in legal terms doesn't mean that there was a widespread plot with a larger purpose--if one guy says "Just write down anything" and the other one does so, and they both know it's false, that's a conspiracy.
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@Ammo, I have not seen anything to indicate that there is an attempt to influence the election. There is a much greater likelihood that it is just like you see in almost every circumstance with paid signature collectors it even happens with volunteers.
Competition, meeting quotas, pay per signature, ego all sorts of reasons alot more likely than trying to influence an election by collecting false signatures.
The organizer's are required by law to turn ALL the form's submitted by collector's reqardless of whether they are complete or suspicious.-
The organizer's are required by law to turn ALL the form's submitted by collector's reqardless of whether they are complete or suspicious.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Logic has never been a strong point for the right. -
Especially not when so many of them are in a state of panic.
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Wait, aren't they always in a state of panic?
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I was just talking to the registrar of voters here, and his take is that, it happens all the time, they've already encountered numerous packets of false registrations (both mistakes and, possibly intentional) - from both sides, and it isn't specific to any one group. Acorn is small potatoes in this.
The job of the registrars is to ensure that the correct information is being put into the system, so tat fraud on election day is reduced as much as possible.
He said, they'll investigate, and act appropriately - but the group itself isn't the problem, but rather their oversight and/or they had a few people who were either lazy or devious and they'll get their punishment as appropriate by that state's law.
That's from the horse's mouth where I live, at least. And it's happening here - and from what he understands, everywhere - and it always does for every major election.-
"He said, they'll investigate, and act appropriately - but the group itself isn't the problem, but rather their oversight and/or they had a few people who were either lazy or devious and they'll get their punishment as appropriate by that state's law."
That's fascinating: they'll investigate (haven't yet), but here's a firm statement of what they'll find when they do investigate?
I wonder whether anyone realizes that scrambling to defend without adequate information can be just as harmful as scrambling to condemn without adequate information. People whose research and considered views I've long respected have seriously compromised their credibility with me in the context of this issue by presenting things as fact that were not only inaccurate but could have been checked out in a matter of minutes...and I'm familiar with the good ACORN has done and predisposed to accept a favorable view of the events. Just imagine how ridiculous some of this must look to the "other side" and what fodder it provides for the voices that want to say Democrats are scrambling and running scared and all of that. There's no REASON to be doing any of that, but given what I've seen in this thread, it sure looks like that's what's happening. -
I didn't say that - that's what the registrar said, and, he spoke from previous experience of the same thing happening with various other groups/false registrations (here).
There are only two possible reasons for false registrations being submitted - either it was laziness/poor judgment (with no intent of "swaying" an election) or it was intentional and fraudulent.
Either way there is a proper punishment for both, provided they can prove who did it (in this case, I'm sure they can).
And, they are already investigating the current claims.
What's not to get? -
I know that's what the registrar said--all the more alarming that someone in that position is willing to make off the cuff assessments like that. No argument that there are different possibilities as to what's happened--one of those possibilities is that the organization itself has some culpability and even actively encouraged this sort of behavior. I'm intrigued (in an "unable to look away from a bad car accident" kind of way) that your registrar friend has already concluded, pre-investigation, that that isn't the case. Just goes to show that there is willful blindness and weak character on all sides of the political fence.
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Like I said, he was speaking from experience, so, I took him on that word. He has yet to ever come across a greater large conspiracy from an organization to throw an election by way of illegal registrations - neither has the other registrar (whom I work for ) in her twenty plus years in the seat.
I don't think he thinks it's impossible - anythings possible - just not plausible. -
Maybe New Englanders are different.
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It's safe bet that we are
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ANd here is the latest:
www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2008/10/state%5fgop%5fleaders%5flink%5f...
A York man employed part-time by ACORN was arrested Saturday and charged with submitting more than 100 bogus registrations over eight days in June. The man was fired when ACORN learned of the discrepancy.
Dauphin County investigators said Luis F. Torres-Serrano, 37, of the 400 block of George St., York, was working part time for ACORN and turned in bogus registration forms, apparently to justify his paycheck, said Chief County Detective John Goshert.
ACORN officials have denied all allegations that the organization knowingly submitted false information to election officials.-
Of course, this might also mean an oversight problem on Acorn's side. They need to have a system that prevents this kind of thing. Dunno if that would be through checking the work more thoroughly or just more serious training.
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Oh absolutely, Mark. Minor mistakes happen - but anything to this extent requires some oversight revision. I do believe they released something to teat effect though.
What bothers me, though, is the attempt at connecting Obama with election throwing via Acorn. -
Exactly. That's slimy to say the least. Whether it will stick or not is another matter. Right now this stuff seems only to affect those who willingly embrace the soothing sounds of the hate machine's echo chamber.
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I wonder if this has any implications for the voter registration process more generally. We seem to have an awfully chaotic system in this country.
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Here's an article in Politico pointing out the obvious: www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14492.html
"ACORN probe gives GOP new line of attack"
Better that than the economy. I guess they'd rather we talk about Keating and Palin and all that good stuff. For the love of God, can't this campaign be about issues? -
The Diane Rehm Show (wamu.org/programs/dr/) will deal with voting and voter registration tomorrow, Tuesday, 10/14/08. If you are interested and can't hear it on NPR, you can get the podcast for free via iTunes.
If you don't know this show, let me say that she always invites guests from opposing political camps in order to ensure an even-handed treatment of the topic.-
the big problem with the media in this country is that they are scared crapless of doing a story that makes the republicans look bad. so tomorrow diane rehm will have that idiot john fund on to make his usual complaints about acorn.
when the election results defy all statistical models, the republicans benefit. period. it's a waste of time even debating these guys. either they're sincere like this fellow probably is, or they're just propagandists, advancing a case they know isn't true for the sole purpose of muddying the waters.
www.ideamouth.com/voterfraud.htm
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