Political Discussions
Foreign workers banned from bailout projects?
Posted by satijournal • 2/06/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Economy, politics, republican
This is being debated in the Senate right now:
WASHINGTON: Two US senators on Thursday proposed to ban firms receiving government bailouts from hiring foreign workers under a special visa program for highly skilled employees.
Senator Chuck Grassley of Iowa said in a statement he sponsored an amendment to the stimulus bill with Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont that would prohibit businesses that have received taxpayer bailout funds from hiring H-1B visa holders.
Senators were preparing to vote on the massive stimulus plan worth 900 billion dollars aimed at easing the worst economic slump in decades.
The H-1B visa program, aimed at filling a need for skilled workers especially in the tech sector, allows companies to hire foreigners for specified periods.
At present, the US imposes a general quota of 65,000 H-1B visas annually, many of them issued to technology workers from India, China and the Philippines.
Grassley said the Troubled Asset Relief Program, aimed at rescuing the financial sector, should give priority to American workers.
"With the unemployment rate at 7.2 per cent, there is no need for companies to hire foreign workers through the H1-B program when there are plenty of qualified Americans looking for jobs," Grassley said.
"I support the H-1B program, but it should be used in the way it was intended -- as a temporary measure to supplement a company's need for hi-tech or specialized workers when none are available in the US."
Grassley said he made the proposal following reports that the banking industry had requested more than 21,000 visas for foreign guest workers over the last six years.
"If banks are going to be getting TARP money -- American taxpayer money -- then they should be hiring American workers," Grassley said
Last week, Grassley asked Microsoft to axe temporary foreign workers first under the US software giant's plan to slash up to 5,000 jobs.
economictimes.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/4084711.cms
User Comments
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Well you wanted protectionism for American jobs.-
That's right. I'm for this bill 100%.
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Makes sense to me. Temporary workers rarely put the money they earn back into the US economy, save for food and rent while they are here.
I do know, and have worked with many temporary skilled workers - they are wonderful people, hard workers - but they come here to make more money than they can at home, and then they take that income home with them when they are done.
If the companies are receiving public funds just to keep afloat, then they need to reinvest the money where it will go back into the US economy. Particularly with so many Americans out of work.-
Ok,
here is a problem though.
These workers arrive here, they get fired, and therefore their visa is no longer valid.
Who pays for them to be sent home? -
They can find work at companies who are not borrowing our money to stay afloat, or, they may use the funds that they had to get home. (Most workers have that saved up already).
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So we bring them here with a promise to work, and then send them home. To a country where those savings could very well be equal to a years pay.
We can't punish them, they followed every law we have.
We can't punish the company that hired them, they were also operating in good faith. Following the laws.
The only thing left is to pay for it with tax money. $65million for starters. Also, we'll have to pay for them to get out of apartment leases prematurely. etc..
could be a big problem.-
Unless the law is retroactive, there will be no broken promises.
Companies who have taken bailout money will not be hiring temporary workers from foreign countries.
Companies who have not taken bailout money will be perfectly able to hire temporary foreign employees. -
So what about a company with bailout money, who can't find suitable employees to begin with..
which is what the H1-B visa was all about. -
The point here is that the H1B visas are ONLY available to fill a job where you are unable to find domestic workers.
So if there are "plenty of qualified" workers in that field. There will be no H1B's issued.
If the company CAN'T find a qualified employee locally. Telling them, well sorry, you can't fill that job at all. Is counter productive.
Its another one of those "This sounds good to appease the caucus that doesn't understand how it works anyway"..
It does absolutely nothing to protect american jobs. the Visa requirements already do that. And in case an H1B is required, (no qualified available) It is bad for the company..
Bad idea all around.. No wonder Sati Likes it. -
Almost any educated foreign worker can be hired with a H-1B Visa. There's no check by the government to verify there weren't qualified workers here that could have done the job.
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I think, what you may be missing is that:
1)Pre massive unemployment, tehre weren't as many qualified persons to fill those jobs. Now there are.
2) Many companies may claim there aren't enough qulaified persons to fill the position - something they will have to rethink now, and
3) Many foreign workers with visas are actually working unqualified jobs. Dishwashers, janitors, waitresses - my old restaurant had different temp foreigners every year. So to, with my husband's last job - employees at the mall, etc..
So between issues 1-3, there are more than a few qualified US persons to fill the jobs, and, companies can no longer opt to hire outside o fthe US if they take the TARP money.
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Wrong,
It's ok Sati, almost no one knows how the immigration laws and different visas work. It's an unholy mess. And it sure sounds good when you don't know the facts.
Just please be man enough to admit that you didn't know either.
The company has to PETITION For the right to sponsor one. And the government still issues them on a case by case basis.
H-1B Work Visa General Information: The H-1B Visa enables professionals in "Specialty Occupations" to make a valuable contribution to the American economy. A maximum of 65,000 H-1B Visas are issued every year. The H-1B Visa is issued for up to three years but may be extended. This provides a maximum stay of six years. The H1-B Visa holder can apply for a Green Card if a company wants to sponsor his or her application.
H-1B Work Visa Eligibility Requirements: The H-1B Non-Immigrant Work Visa may be issued to applicants seeking temporary work in a "Specialty Occupation" which requires the skills of a professional. "Specialty Occupations" include: accounting, computer analysts, programmers, database administrators, web designers, engineers, financial analysts, doctors, nurses, scientists, architects and lawyers.
The petitions are submitted by employers based on their need for the non-US.-resident employee.
H1-B Visa holders must posses a minimum of a bachelor's degree. However, requisite experience can substitute for education, depending on the individual case. The H-1B Work Visa Application Guide is comprehensive, detailed, and easy to understand. It contains everything one needs in order to successfully apply for a H-1B Visa.-
"Must have a bachelor's degree"
LMAO ROFLMAO *snort*
We have about 2000 temp foreign workers with their visas working right now as janitors in one large company that ships in new ones every year.
I guarantee you they do not have college educations.
Oh, and they don't even get paid federal minimum wage, which is why the company ships them in. -
I guarrantee you that if they are janitors, they are on J-1 visas, not H1B's which is what Grassler and Sanders is rallying against in this amendment. H1b's require what i said above.
It's the wrong fight for the wrong reason..
You see, what you just said shows why this is a knee-jerk amendment designed to make them "look good". With people who like most (including you) have no idea what a specific visa is or does.
It has no relevant effect, and it isn't targeting anything that is hurting american jobs. -
So you're saying there are NO Americans who are:
"Specialty Occupations" include: accounting, computer analysts, programmers, database administrators, web designers, engineers, financial analysts, doctors, nurses, scientists, architects and lawyers.
? Really?
Because there are an awful lot of Americans who are, and are in need of employment....
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I have two reactions:
1) The article says nothing about H1-B visa-holders currently employed. So, there is no reason to assume that the provision would cover current visa-holders, only new hires.
2) I find it difficult to believe that there are many positions that are so specialized that no domestic workers could be found or trained to fill them. H1-B visas *should* be rare, by definition. In other words, we have loads of citizens working in the "Specialty Occupations" Erik listed.
So, I guess I have no problems with it, either.-
Actually, some positions are extremely hard to find employees for.
For instance, startup and small companies often can't offer competitive pay compared to large companies. So for them to hire someone, FINDIND one isn't hard, Finding one that isnt asking too much is.
Then there is specializations, remember that the H1B only applies to either a Bachelors degree or above. or 12 YEARS of relevant experience.
This isn't just any job, these are more often than not masters and PHD's that are being hired for research and development.
The market isn't that thick. -
Maybe the job market isn't that thick now... but wait 3 months until Stimulus Dollars start hitting books, and that may change.
As for people asking too much, I don't buy it. I have experience with a major multi-national company. When we hired engineers and brought them here from overseas, 85% of the time it was because someone knew someone else and no national search was done to fill the position. IMO that has to stop. If companies are going to be using taxpayer dollars to stay afloat, they had better be serious about searching for domestic talent. Or they have no business taking the money in the first place.
As for startups and small companies, if they're not willing to follow the standards set for hiring, they will fail and companies that are willing to play by the rules will spring up in their place. Isn't that the capitalist way?
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wrong spot
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Ok,
That you didn't do a national search, isn't the same as proving that you DID to immigration, which you have to when you petition for the H1B.
Startups, and especially development startup companies often can't pay as much up front. They offer other things instead. Stock options are common.
But like i said, no one is threathened by the H1B, once you get to the point where you can petition one, you've already failed in finding one "locally".
If there is indeed plenty of qualified americans as Grassley said, then no one will be given an H1B for those jobs. And if there aren't any americans, it's good for the economy to let the company hire the ones they need.
Lets not forget that a company can't pay one of them less than their normal paygrade for that position. So they aren't competing on that either.-
I'm not so concerned that foreign workers are being hired more cheaply than american workers. I just know from experience that a 1-week listing on Monster.com for a highly-specialized position does not qualify as a serious national search. But whoever "reviews" H1-B visa applications must think that it does... In my experience, not one of those visas was ever questioned on the grounds that domestic talent was readily available because the applications are carefully written to describe the exact qualifications of the person HR wanted to bring over.
If there is one thing business-people are *very* good at, it is using the system to circumvent the system. (Another pleasant benefit of capitalism.)
You said, "if there aren't any Americans, it's good for the economy to let the company hire the ones they need."
I say, Nope. If there aren't any Americans, make it work with the talent you have. That's what training is all about. -
Yes, you keep telling yourself that.. lol
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Anok,
LIke i said, if there ARE qualified people. Then they have to be offered a job and reject it. before an H1B is issued. Problem solved
Midwest,
To force a company to spend time and money to train someone before they can be productive in the middle of a crunch isn't smart either.
Most companies aren't looking to hire someone outside the states to begin with. the time in applying for visas, moving them over etc. Is too long, unless there is a real problem finding someone local, it isn't preferable in any case.
And if there is a probleim with how Immigration reviews it, then THAT should be adressed, not banning an entire program from being used. It makes no sense.
So my question is, you've been wrong in most of your assumptions. Why are you defeinding this amendment with such fervor. Its a useless amendment, which by now i think i've proven pretty well. It doesnt address any relevant problem.
Do you just hate being wrong that much? I mean. Grassley is a republican after all.. That he fucked up should make you jump for joy.-
csi, you're naive as a little school girl if you don't think companies are going to bring in foreign workers if they can pay them less. If you read the news instead of just right-wing websites, you'd know that some of the first bailout money was used by financial institutions to do just that.
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Well if it's that much of a hassle, this bill shouldn't be a problem at all.
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THEY CANT PAY THEM LESS!!!!!
they not only lose the visa they already have if they do, they also lose the right to sponsor another H1B
Sorry Sati, this is one area I know pretty well, and you apparently only know from reading lefty news..
Anok, the amendment is a stupid idea because it solves nothing. And it adds a problem that doesn't have to be there.
The only thing it will do, is make more visas available for the companies that aren't in trouble. So if every problem that you mention exists.. (which they don't with this particular visa)... then the GOOD jobs with the SOLID companies will all be taken by foreigners.
So arguing that you are right.. Why would you want to move the portion of those 65.000 jobs over to the strong companies with good futures? -
csi, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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SANTA CLARA, Calif. – Major U.S. banks sought government permission to bring thousands of foreign workers into the country for high-paying jobs even as the system was melting down last year and Americans were getting laid off, according to an Associated Press review of visa applications.
The dozen banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages, totaling more than $150 billion, requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years for positions that included senior vice presidents, corporate lawyers, junior investment analysts and human resources specialists. The average annual salary for those jobs was $90,721, nearly twice the median income for all American households.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090201/ap_on_bi_ge/bailout_foreign_workers-
Companies are required to pay foreign workers a prevailing wage based on the job's description. But they can use the lower end of government wage scales even for highly skilled workers; hire younger foreigners with lower salary demands; and hire foreigners with higher levels of education or advanced degrees for jobs for which similarly educated American workers would be considered overqualified.
"The system provides you perfectly legal mechanisms to underpay the workers," said John Miano of Summit, N.J., a lawyer who has analyzed the wage data and started the Programmers Guild, an advocacy group that opposes the H-1B system. -
Twice the median income....
THEY ARE HIGHLY EDUCATED BY REQUIREMENT... what did they expect??
Programmers Guild, an advocacy group that opposes the H-1B system.
Oh, yeah, Advocacy groups always present the unbiased facts.. i forgot.
Come on Sati, next time you try to pull something out your ass. Use lube, might hurt less.
Liberty,
Spot on, the loopholes and resulting problems will outweigh the potential problems. -
And to expand on this I'm not against trying to do things in an attempt to repair this situation so long as they are thoughtful, practical, and not loaded down with a bunch of wasteful bs.
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"positions that included senior vice presidents, corporate lawyers, junior investment analysts and human resources specialists"
These don't look like the positions covered under the H1B status as csiunatc already listed.
It is fluff legislation. I in this case wish their might be a little more temporary protectionism for american employees so long as measures are taken, beforehand, to hinder future inflation that is yet to come (which obviously isn't happening).
this is fluff legislation to make people look good that doesn't do anything good - like exec caps - yes 2nd or 3rd men down could do the job that the 1st might not be able to afford anymore but it wont fix it.
they will still get severance packages and sign on bonuses, there are still business trips and entertainment and non taxable gifts up to $12 K per gift (nice loop hole huh?). There is a lot that can be done around all the things here and above.
All these things do is enact counterproductive excess legislation that sends a positive message to generally apathetic and media-educated public. It sends a positive message now to those that don't understand it or don't want to. That and it warns business that they are now getting into bed with the mob per say.
Hmmmmmm.... I'm going to have to think about that internship application with Grassley I sent out. Oh, well not many great options out here right now in such a populace minded state.-
The public is not apathetic at all right now.
There are already marches, protests, and petitions in the works to make certain things (like salary caps) retroactive - and a call for accountability. These are being organized by citizens - and lots of them. -
I said generally. The moderate majority in most times are apathetic. I didn't say always. Many of them are now starting to show interest for the first time in their lives. Pretty impressionable times in the staus quo, and very dangerous ones they are also.
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Oh yeah, and masses screaming for something are always protesting the RIGHT choices right..
like the ones pushing Prop 8 through.... lol -
well to an extent i disagree in a sense i am a libertarian in a sense and i don't think the government should have anything to do with these religious/spiritual matters and a constitutional amendment is needed in favor of civil unions.
although if you want to get on this direction how about the fairness of title IX?
I mean come on, all equality for women compared to mens football? Where's the equality for mens wrestlers, swimmers, gymnasts, track & field etc? So womens rights financially are more important then those of non football playing men. I mean heck its not like they even count as a real student. Heck they probably only really count as 3/5's or something...
Oh oops did I say something not PC?
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Microsoft has not been bailed out what business does some senator have to tell them what to do?
This is a sure fire recipe for wage inflation which will cripple the US economy. Hiring foreign workers keeps wages down, sure employees moan about it but the fact is if wage inflation sets in the company becomes uncompetitive, goes bust and everyone is out of a job.
This proposal seems a bit backward. At a time when companies need to be lean and mean it seems odd for the State to take over their recruitment procedures.
Worst of all though, this is a Global financial crisis. Sure these foreign workers tend to send their money home but this stimulates the economies of their country of origin. The US in today's world cannot rely exclusively on its own market, it needs countries like the Indonesia, India and China to continue to develop their economies. Indonesia has the 4th largest population in the world at 230 million. That is a massive potential market for US goods and services.-
Poly.. Right. but Obama wants to put protectionism in place. Penalize companies that buy work from them. And thinks that it wont be paid back with interest in terms of levies and tarriffs.
THis is an all around disaster..
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Maybe I'm missing something here. Don't legal foreign workers pay US taxes? Buy local goods and services? Stimulate the local economy? Wouldn't hiring them for jobs that have been unfilled help local employers stay in business, supporting co-workers and the employer's BTB partners? Shouldn't companies that don't have a hiring freeze be encouraged to do just that, hire people?-
But it's so much easier to pretend that economics is a zero-sum game.
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Absolutely correct,
A relatively large percentage often leaves the country, but most of it stays here, being spent like for any other employee, rent, credit cards, Food, etc. -
This bill is for H-1B Visa workers, who are brought in to fill professional positions because they can be paid less. It's not for migrant workers or laborers.
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Yada yada... still just ignoring the facts and spitting out dumb things.
No, those jobs can't be paid less. And printing facts from interest groups that say they do is just a little pathetic. -
Go home you damn foreigner.
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True colors.. lol. It's ok we know you always go ad hominem when your arguments are out.
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Sati, I hate to burst your bubble, but H1-B law requires that recipients be paid the prevailing wage for that position.
You can look at it here:
www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/h-1b.cfm -
As I posted above, there are ways of getting around the rules.
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Worrying about foreign workers or foreign-manufactured goods is an unnecessary distraction. Like it or not, we live in an interdependent world. No point in exacerbating tensions with other countries or taking it out on tax-paying and product-consuming non-citizens.
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Not to mention it is at the most 65.000 workers, who will only be allowed entry if there isn't a qualified american or resident to take the job...
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Wow I just ran some numbers for the heck of it. Granted these are extreme maximums and are probably not entirely realistic the result to me is still somewhat staggering.
65,000 H1-B employees x 6 year maximum stay = 390,000 H1B maximum employees
Now I do not know what it costs to deport the average immigrant, but just for a hypothetical I'm considering an average 1,000. This is not official that I know of but a number I saw in an article so that's what I'm going with.
So it ends up being another 4 mil. added onto our deficit. This seems like a bit much. If it prevented new foreigners from being hired that may be one thing but making current ones obsolete is quite obviously something totally different.-
They are prevented from being hired unless the company can't find someone here to do the job. That's also in the H1B legislation.
In which case it's better to fill a needed position and move on than to fill it with someone unqualified.
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