Political Discussions
Jesus Christ was a socialist?
Posted by jeremyjanson • 9/19/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: authoritarianism, coercive force, jesus, liberalism, marxism, socialism, taxes
For all those out there who say that the man from Galilee was a Marxist:
atlantapoliticsonline.blogspot.com/2009/09/christian-left-supports-exploita...
YOU WILL DIE LAUGHING AT YOURSELVES!!! MUWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!
User Comments
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Jeshua of Nazareth was a moral philospher in the tradition of Ethical Judaism. Did he support "greed is good"? No. Did he support the Lex Talionis? No. Was he involved in reforming the government of his day? Also no. He seemed to view such things practically for life in such an autocracy. "Give unto Ceasar..." and all that. It was in his involvement in the politics of his community that he became a controversial figure.-
@Agit8r: Part of your mistake is assuming that anyone who is not a socialist believes "greed is good."
Some of the greediest people I've known (including the entire state of California) are socialists. My grandfather, who believes "love of money is the root of evil" and "family is the most important thing in life," is a staunch economic conservative. In Christ's eyes, the government of his day was pretty darn unimportant.
The point is that Christ hates coercive power, and a lot of the point of non-resistance, "do not resist an evil person," is to avoid doing exactly what both the Christian Right, the Christian Left, and the Socialists have been doing for the last 100 years. Non-resistance and "love and pray for those who persecute you" are the ultimate respect of the individual, as if you do not value the individual you believe in throwing Mr. Evil in to a trash compactor. Just because Congress is your weapon doesn't mean it isn't violence.
Further, Paul also said "don't work, don't eat" and not to use the courts and the government to settle disputes. And part of the point of the fragrant oil, Mary Magdalene, Jesus, and Judas Iscariot was to make the point that 1) most people who hate private property are hypcocrites, and 2) people have a right to their own decision and their own heart.
Just because you are supposed to feed and clothe the poor doesn't mean you have the right to someone elses tax money (thou shalt not steal - it doesn't become stealing any less because you used the government to do it; also, thou shalt not covet; you may ask what about important government roles and that is different, because that government is entitled to, but they are not entitled to redistribute and if you cheapskate your way around this you are still stealing in your heart.)
And further, not all the disciples did sell their possesions, Mary Magdalene didn't - one of the greatest stories of the New Testament comes from her use of a piece of her own property (the fragrant oil.) Nor did Paul, as he pointed out to Aninias before the Spirit killed him (Acts 5), utilize coercive power or could have because their were other competing churches of Christ, including the Manichees (read St. Augustine's "Confessions").
Paul's church became dominant in the Roman Empire because it was based out of Rome and eventually (a few hundred years later) backed by Emperor Constantine. Until that time, you couldn't coerce because people could, and did, leave. -
Eloquent retort. Very nice. -
I was referring to the ministry of Jesus himself, which--as I mentioned above--was not involved in reform or revolution of government. He was involved with reforming individual ethics. The fact that Christian Rome became a welfare state (see also; "The Dole") is no indictment against the philosopher himself.
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@Agit8r: Rome was already well on it's way to becoming a welfare state before Christ showed up. The fact is, using the IRS to commit bank robbery is theft, and when Christ was talking about non-violence he didn't just mean random people punching each other. Christianity is a religion of the heart, not the scepter and the handcuff.
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I'm not sure exactly what you're saying JJ, but you seem to be arguing against a point that I'm not making.
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What I'm saying is any coercive doctrine or love of violence is fundamentally antichristian, regardless of how the violence is conducted, and that there is a very extensive focus on personal responsibility and due where due (ie. giving all glory to God, giving "unto Ceasar what is ceasers," respecting leaders and elders of every stripe, et cetera) that is fundamentally anti-authoritarian of any stripe. Further, giving all your possesions to the church was clearly not required (otherwise Paul would not have been able to say what he said to Ananias.)
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"there is a very extensive focus on personal responsibility and due where due (ie. giving all glory to God, giving "unto Ceasar what is ceasers," respecting leaders and elders of every stripe, et cetera) that is fundamentally anti-authoritarian of any stripe"
Would you say that this should apply to Christian parenting practices as well? -
Absolutely. If God wanted your children to be raised like spoiled suburbanites, he wouldn't have made the Bible so graphic. There is a very conservative "leave me alone" vision of liberty in the bible.
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um... no. I meant to compare governing one's household to governing a country. Do the same rules apply? o_0
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Slight adaptation though because the position of a parent (having to teach their child how to live) and a government (having to dispose of unsavory individuals and decisions) is fundamentally different. The same moral principles, however, would apply.
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good to know
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just to follow up, JJ, do you really believe government has no role to play in building up it's citizenry? I think several founding fathers would disagree. o_0
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@Agit8r: I think the Founding Fathers were too idealistic about government, except maybe Alexander Hamilton who, as it turns out, was probably more right about everything then the rest of them put together. The problem with government is it is too coercive and plutocratic by nature and the concept of perversity can make the best intentioned moral laws have the opposite intended affect (remember the conversation between the donation seeker and Ebeneazer Scrooge in "A Christmas Carol"?) There are maybe one or two small areas, like City Planning and Education, where government can have some positive impact on the development of citizenry and, otherwise, not really anywhere. For the most part, the purpose of government is keeping peace and providing for a handful of things that no one else can.
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"...Alexander Hamilton who, as it turns out, was probably more right about everything then the rest of them put together. The problem with government is it is too coercive and plutocratic by nature..."
lol @ the thickness of the irony -
@Agit8r: Yeah, he was a realist.
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and he was THE big-government founding father. Uproarious
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Yeah, but that was more to create a centralized state. The ideals behind it were very different. It was simply to make sure that government could handle the responsibilities that were given to it. You know, liberalism and the liberal theory of big government didn't really come about until around the time of William Randolph Hearst.
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Jesus wept.-
LOL. Why?
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John 11:35
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Direct quotation.
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Virtually all Christians who make this argument do so by leapfrogging over the core issue to a secondary one. The secondary issue, which is the focus every time I see this issue raised by Christians who want us to leave their money alone, is government involvement. On that point, they are quite correct. Jesus Christ clearly never said (or gave any suggestion) that the government should step in and reallocate our resources.
Of course, if we were all living according to Christ's teachings, that would be entirely unnecessary.
I readily concede that the Bible says nothing about the government taxing one person to give to another.
Now that we've settled that: show me the part where Jesus says it's a good (or even acceptable) thing for you to buy multiple homes and a speedboat while your "neighbor" starves.-
"Now that we've settled that: show me the part where Jesus says it's a good (or even acceptable) thing for you to buy multiple homes and a speedboat while your "neighbor" starves."
Nowhere. But the government is not your moral nanny any more then they are your economic one. I think you're too vindictive. I'm a Tech student, I hardly have possesions and have no income. The bigger problem is the problem of the human heart, and no matter how many taxes you collect from wealthy people, if the wretched filth inside remains, the power hungry, as we found out in the USSR and elsewhere, will always find a way to exploit.
Also, when you force behavior, rather then letting love and faith bring people to Christ (and this is part of the reason why the Catholic Church is NOT my church and never will be, though I still think the Baptists are worse) you do not create obedience. As the Old Roman saying goes, "when the cats away the mice will play." Even worse then simply not doing damage, or even putting a dent, you pervert people. You make them hate you, and then they sadistically do the wrong thing for the sake of breaking the rules. People do that. It's a part of human nature. When you stifle people like that and try to control them on that level, they hate you.
Further, it's a bit more then simply "never saying." The bible makes it very clear time and time again, from Ahab & Naboth to Asa to the Pharisees that tyranny is an ABOMINATION TO GOD, PUNISHABLE BY DEATH AND THE DESTRUCTION OF COUNTRIES. It is true, as you also stated in a previous thread, that God will not actually prevent these abuses, but anybody who encourages them in the name of God will face retribution no more kind then what was shelved out at King Ahab, watching his entire family destroyed, his kingdom humbled, his dynasty ended, and his wife eaten by dogs.
This is a bad attitude. You should not be pursuing the violence of government to change people. You should "turn the other cheek," MadameX. You should not "resist an evil person," as the Sermon on the Mound makes quite clear.
And when you go to Detroit, where people tried your schemes and impoverished and ruined their city consumed with their desire to control and have the possesions of others, you see why. You see vast lines of unemployed people. You see closed factories. You see broken dreams and abandoned towns. You should take a trip there, and see how God deals with those who submit to this abomination.
Still, thank you for responding. I was waiting for you to get here. Have a good day and thanks for clearly stating where your objection was. -
I think that comparing Detroit to the USSR is a bit of a s stretch
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I'm not, but I'm pointing to how this same line of thinking, in the US, has hurt the very people it was meant to help, and that God deals very harshly with those who pick tyranny. Fact of the matter is MadameX, God doesn't tell us to do things because he likes ordering people around. Honestly, if he wasn't 1) responsible for us, 2) wise, and 3) in love with us, he probably wouldn't even bother. He actually kind of likes a little pandemonium, as his own world proves. He tells us what to do to maximize human happiness and create a truly beautiful world for all his creation.
Sometimes I read the commandments and think, you know, wouldn't it be hilarious if heaven was exactly like Earth but people ACTUALLY obeyed these? It would be heaven - doors would be open, hearts would be warm, a mans (or womans) word would mean something, and you could walk the streets anywhere at 3 in the morning and not be scared of anything but shadows, tripping and feral cats! People would love and respect all those around them, relationships would be deep and loving, and if you fell on hard times, they would be there for you, a community of friends, with an iron bond of personal loyalty and love. People would work hard, and truly put heart in to everything they did, and we'd be free, living by the heart instead of the sword.
See MadameX, it's not about "HOW DARE YOU HOLD YOUR WILL ABOVE HIS!" it's about a beautiful, perfect, loving, passionate, romantic and all-knowing being telling you what you need to know to live life better for yourself and everyone you should love. It's about the heart, and no matter how much you force people to conform with superficial rules and behaviors, if you don't touch what's inside of them, you don't get anywhere. So stop playing strange games with the IRS and the US Congress and focus on things of the soul, things of the spirit, not things of the earth (like the entire DC Beltway!) which is damned. -
@jeremey...well said, very well said.
But I just want to ask one question. Why is it in your version of Heaven on earth do we have feral cats?
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It's mainly a joke.
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Actually this thread has convinced polybore that Jesus was/ is a socialist. After careful consideration and having reviewed all the data it is the beard that swung it.
Guess that makes non socialists heretics. Does anyone know of an environmentally friendly way of burning many, many heretics?-
don't forget the sandals
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you just have to compost the ashes -
We don't burn heretics anymore. We give them jobs at Comedy Central.
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