Political Discussions
Joe Six-Packs Team with Hockey Moms
Posted by TheBigRuski • 10/04/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Culture, Democrats, demographics, election, Republicans, sarah palin, vice president
Several questions come to mind...
How big a voting block is the Joe Six-Pack/Hockey Mom contingent?
Are the JSHMs strong enough to help defeat Obama Nation?
How do Obama supporters counter the aggressive, appealing nature of Joe Six-Pack and Hockey Mom?
And finally...
What is your cringe factor (if you have one) at the mere mention of Sarah Palin, Joe Six-Pack, and Hockey Mom?
User Comments
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I think that they're really two very different demographics, and that the latter vote in much larger numbers than the former. But, based on the viewer reactions I saw tracked during the debate, that comment was one of Palin's lowest points...the reaction dipped dramatically at that moment, just as it did both time she referred to McCain as a "maverick" and when she mentioned McCain suspending the campaign to go back to Washington.
I think one big thing she overlooked in her arrogance is that "Joe Six Pack" generally doesn't think of himself as Joe Six Pack. It's fine to throw around that kind of language behind the scenes when analyzing demographics, but to say it in that context, instead of something like "the average American", sounds a lot like saying, "I'm out here representing even those of you who are slackers who drink too much and haven't accomplished much in life". Anyone who is comfortable being described that way probably isn't a guy who bothers to watch a debate or show up at the polls.-
But, you see, in the same way you bristle at this so-called arrogance, the "average American" just may be a bit ticked off at comments like "her arrogance" or not understanding that "Joe Six Pack" can mean more than a drunk or someone who "hasn't accomplished much in life." It's obvious she was not referring to people with drinking problems.
So, it's kind of a tit-for-tat to call someone arrogant in their ways.
Sorry, but you appear "elitist!" (Is that a dirty word now, interpreted to be a character attack?) -
Are you sure she's not referring to guys with really great abs?
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@MM...Ya, that's the ticket!
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That's pretty funny, Ruski. I appear elitist by thinking that it's going to have a negative effect to use a denigrating term to stereotype a sector of society?
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Guess what!?!
It's no longer going to be denigrating!
I also take it that you "cringe" pretty hard when hearing the term "Joe Six-Pack." So, I'll take that as a Cringe Factor of 10...10 being the highest on a scale of 1 to 10.
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I cringe because these terms are rather meaningless. Hockey Mom is just a variation on Soccer Mom, except more kids play soccer than hockey so it's a smaller audience. But what the hell does Joe SixPack mean? The only Joe SixPack I know was the guy in the local paper who reviewed microbrewery beers.-
You must cringe for a reason more than these terms are "meaningless." If they are meaningless, why are you cringing?
Joe Six-Pack is the guy that comes home from work and has a beer or two...like clockwork. It could be he just includes picking up a six-pack on the way home as part of his routine. It could also mean that he drinks a six-pack over the weekend...after a long, hard work week. He's hard working and tries to keep life simple.
Now, sure, some will over indulge, but that is not the implication.
You are right about Hockey Moms. -
I cringe because words and terms should mean actually mean something, or at least mean something more than just vague focus group terms designed to reduce people into dehumanized subgroups to market whatever to.
And by your definition, I am a Joe SixPack. -
A sophisticated Joe Six-Pack...I assume!
BTW....I assure you that her comments had NOTHING to do with focus groups. -
You assure me? You're assuring me of the nature of something that came out of someone else's mouth whom you've never had one single instance of actual personal contact with? From whence does this assurance come?
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My gut feeling.
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I happen to live in a rural place with more stay-at-home moms than the national average (and probably more guys named Joe who drink their share of miller lite)... and I will say that in no way does Sarah Palin and her position on issues relate to my experience.
There are plenty of *extremely* patriotic people where I live -- the ones who know "Proud to be and American" by heart (as do their 4 year olds), so that portion of the McCain message that taps into the blind flag-waver appeals to them. But, even among McCain people, I have yet to hear any serious talk of Sarah Palin. There is more likely a comment about how she looks or that she's 'spunky', but even those whose qualification for voting is merely that they've had a pulse for the appropriate number of years aren't crowing about her. They're more likely to tell you some lie about Obama as the reason they're supporting McCain.
And when I go to the polls to help out on voting day, honestly, that crowd is not the one I see. I see older people, mothers with children, and professionals.
So, I don't know where Sarah Palin is hoping to get votes, because her dumbed-down performance was insulting to our intelligence.
I was at soccer this morning, and not one person mentioned her in glowing terms. She was the sideline joke, as a matter of fact.-
She is the sideline joke because many don't have the guts to call out people who love to just make fun of her. Instead they join in on the fun...with late night talk show hosts, with the Democrat pundits, with a majority of Americans (it appears now) who support Obama.
It's like..."did you hear the one about Britney Spears last night?" and everyone chiming in "ya, ain't she stupid" while under their breath they know it's wrong to gossip and revel in someones mistakes and downfalls.
There ARE people who speak up and say, Palin is smart, she's direct, AND she's tapping into people who are just fed up with the elitists.
Again, I think Obama is a great candidate, but I have conservative values and Palin reminds a lot of us why we have chosen to stick with conservative thought. -
"There ARE people who speak up and say, Palin is smart, she's direct, AND she's tapping into people who are just fed up with the elitists."
The problem is, she hasn't shown any evidence that she IS smart. I've certainly worked with politicians (though at the local level) who were as down-to-earth as she is (or pretends to be) and didn't stand on ceremony. That resonates with me, as the daughter of a carpenter who was the first person in my extended family to go to college--even when I was practicing law, I was a lot more comfortable throwing darts at the VFW than at the country club. But the critical difference is that these people knew their jobs inside out, and knew what was really important, and didn't think that being homespun was a substitute for knowledge or expert advice. Anyone who makes it to adulthood thinking she knows it all (particularly with such a tiny experience base) is showing us a LOT about her capacity for learning. -
You have the impression that she's saying "I know it all?"
Hmmm...interesting. -
Her history in political office is that she eschews the advice of those chosen to be the experts in various areas and cloisters herself with people she's close with who may or may not know anything about the subject at hand--that certainly indicates that she thinks she knows enough to ignore the experts. She announced with great confidence that she was entirely ready to be VP, something which is not only blatantly untrue in her case but would be an overconfident statement for anyone--any person who is ready to step into a position like that with no reservations clearly doesn't understand the responsibility involved or is suffering from overconfidence at a level that might be considered delusional (even if that person had some relevant knowledge or experience). Yes, I think that her entire career has said, "I know better than any of you, whether I know anything about this or not, so get out of the way and let me blunder ahead."
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good for you...MX!
Thanks for your opinion. -
Hey, Alex.
Actually, I didn't participate in the joking on the sideline this morning... I just listened with amusement. One guy said to another (and these guys are a garbage truck driver and a construction guy), "so d'you watch the debate the other night?"
"Yep."
"Whad'ya think of our girl?"
"(chuckle) She's cute, but if the old guy ever kicks off, we're screwed."
You be the judge how 'elitist' that is.
[Just for the record, if I were you, I would avoid labeling people who disagree with you. I have always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt on these forums, but I'm finding that I'm starting to lose patience with being called names like 'elitist'. I'm anything but that. So, unless you can vouch personally for the varied backgrounds of people you're attempting to engage in conversation, please don't toss insults. If they continue, I will probably just stop responding to your threads. Love, Mom.] -
Hey mom! Heh, I just wanted to say that
I really don't think the McCain ticket is appealing all that much to the true middle class Americans, and I think that perhaps your experience this morning is a small, yet poignant, confirmation of that.
I mean, I do know people, who are technically middle class that support McCain and Palin, but they aren't real middle class Americans. Most of the ones I know personally are on the upper end of the middle class, and are trying and hoping to break that distinctive social barrier between middle class (or "working class") and upper middle class, or middle management. In fact, many of them already hold middle management positions, but are living so far outside of their means they are being hit very very hard right now.
I just look to my family - my mother is the type of person who supports McCain/Palin, is technically middle class, but lives like she's wealthy. On credit. I think there is some hope that the consistent de-regulation, lower taxes, and economic mantra that conservatives use constantly serves to tempt those stuck in that weird zone like my mother - they THINK they can be wealthy like their conservative heroes, but it isn't likely they ever will be.
And I think that's the draw. Whereas you have true middle class citizens and families who have no interest in all that, and just want an economy that works, and jobs to stay in the country. It's doubly interesting to me, because you have those on the right calling Palin McCain critics "elitists" when i think the majority of support for the campaign is either coming from the uber elite and super wealthy - and the elite wannabes.
Turn around and look at the average American, and they're looking at Obama and saying, yeah he makes sense.
*shrug* Just my psychobabble for today -
Thanks for the psychobabble -- I needed that.
It's funny to hear you say that about your mom. My parents are very conservative and always have been. They have wanted that 'upper' at the front of our middle class status, but my husband and I are hardworking and cautious, *and* we've chosen to have me stay home. That choice involves sacrifice, and we're not willing to have a credit card lifestyle... So, we are solidly middle. No gold card for me.
I can understand that there is a perception that Barack Obama is elitist. I just don't see it. I look at him and I see someone who has the same background as a good number of the children in my town. He hasn't had an easy life. Yes, he was the beneficiary of a world class education, but that in itself is no guarantee that a person will do anything. He used it to make a difference to very regular people.
I know John McCain has a heroic story, but I don't see him doing much that is heroic right now. His plans don't include us. They don't include anyone in this part of the country. He has no education plans, no healthcare plans, no infrastructure investment plans, (he wants to have a government spending freeze!) To me, he is just an old man who was broken by the 2000 election and now is running to benefit corporate America.
As for Sarah Palin, she is window dressing to me. She offers nothing in the way of policy. Oh, I know she says she's an expert on energy, but you name me one state that has the same resource issues as Alaska. (Texas? Don't even go there.) She hasn't been responsible for an urban area (no, Wasilla doesn't count), she hasn't been responsible to farmers, she is in a state with so little infrastructure that they had to *invent* something to build. And I'm supposed to believe that she's like me and that she will represent me and give voice to my concerns on the federal level?
Please.
There is nothing elitist about my disdain for Sarah Palin. She is a caracature of what the McCain campaign thinks rural America admires. That's why she can talk about "Joe Sixpack" with a straight face. She doesn't understand that we have *actual* needs, much more than just someone pretending to be like us.
Sarah Palin, just like John McCain, provides nothing in the way of policy that rural America truly needs. -
Yup - and to further your point about the distance of Palin and McCain from real Americans...Palin claims to have worked two jobs all her life (until she had kids)- well, she's 44, her oldest is 19...that means she worked roughly up until she was 25, or less than ten years of her life, and, I doubt that a teenager worked two jobs AND attended school, never mind a college student working two jobs in the same way that American adults who are trying to pay their bills and feed their children are working two jobs.
Her husband is in upper management for BP, and they are NOT middle class, by any standards.
And McCain? Came from wealth (ier) people, went straight into the military academy, and then into the senate. He has done nothing else.
How are they supposed to relate to real people like you and me? -
Sorry, MM...I sent you a PM! Keep rockin'!
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I absolutely cringed when Palin said "Joe six pack". The whole Hockey/soccer mom thing doesn't phase me - but for whatever reason, calling someone "Joe six pack" came off as almost derogatory. It didn't sit well with me on a personal level - and as far as scoring a debate, it was in poor form.
"Joe America" or something to that effect would have been much better, on all sides.
There's something about equating alcohol consumption with the average American, or blue collar worker that sounds snide. Even if they do drink a six pack over the weekend. I mean, you wouldn't say "Joe bag of chips" would you?
Palin makes me cringe on other levels for obvious reasons - one, I disagree with just about 100% of her policy stances - not that there are very many, or that her political record has much to agree or disagree with. Her lack of experience (and no, less than two years of serious government experience does not count as a qualification for the VP position). Some of her insistence about legislation votes at the podium and what they mean smacks of naivety - it's OK for the average American with little political experience to look at votes on the floor as black and white, but anyone who knows anything about how congressional politics and legislation works knows that votes are not what they seem, and bills get additions that change the whole meaning of it.
The fact that the VP candidate seemed genuinely lacking in that understanding makes me cringe. And on the podium during the debate, her black and white questions to "nail" Biden's or Obama's voting records seemed genuine, and not like a political play.
How big a voting block is the Joe Six-Pack/Hockey Mom contingent?
That's hard to say - I don't know what type of person or family Palin is addressing when she says "hockey mom" or "Joe six pack". If she means to imply blue collar, middle class families it is a massive voting block that is leaning outright for Obama. Then again, I don't interpret her phrases to mean the whole middle class block, but rather a more select block within that classification. And I think that there are very few people who fit into, or identify with those types of classifications.
Are the JSHMs strong enough to help defeat Obama Nation?
Nope.
How do Obama supporters counter the aggressive, appealing nature of Joe Six-Pack and Hockey Mom?
Since both terms are often used in derogatory ways (even by middle class folks) or are seen as quasi-insults by those who may be "JSPHM" but would rather been seen as someone in he upper middle class block - I'd say it isn't actually appealing at all.
If she means to imply regular, hard working Americans who aren't rich - then again, Obama actually has a great deal of those votes already.-
Aye, saying "Joe Six-Pack" is, to me, the equivalent of saying "Joe Burger King" or "Joe Trailer Trash" or "Joe Too Unsophisticated to Drink Wine and Too Dumb to Stay Sober". It implies a blue collar worker that can't understand all of these high-falutin', college-boy matters and votes for the people who will let him keep drinking beer and buying whatever weapons he likes for hunting. It also ignores that "Joe" has a "Jane" who can't possibly be a hockey mom, because the equipment is too expensive the she can't get off of work enough to ferry Junior hither and yon to games.
It is derogatory and I share the surprise of others here that Ms. Palin would throw that term out in public. Even had I been interested in the ticket up to that point, assuming I did not disagree with nearly every position they've taken, revealing that sort of condescension would have turned my right off of her.
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I take it, some of you women would not just never consider dating a man who likes his beer, but cringe, and classify him as a loser.
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I married a sailor - who liked his beer, vodka, gin, whiskey and tequila, usually in that order
No, I don't cringe at men or women who like beer. I cringe at the term Joe six pack being used to classify and stereotype a group of people by a VP candidate. -
I could say something very insulting right now about your spousal choice...but I will not because for one, I myself was that and more (not the sailor part) and two, I don't want to be insulting, and three, you are giving more credence to the "alcohol" part of the name than should be.
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That's just silly, Ruski. Saying that a woman who objects to a man being defined by his drinking habits has something against men who happen to drink sometimes is such a pure defiance of logic that it has to be intentional.
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^ how's the lawyering coming along?
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As I'm sure you know, I haven't "lawyered" in more than a decade. That doesn't mean I lost my ability to think critically. That doesn't require a law degree, just a bit of inclination.
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Why on earth would you have something insulting to say about a man who:
A) Served his country during wartime, risking his life
B) Drank alcohol when he got out
C) Married a woman, had a family, and now supports us and cares for us unconditionally?
He isn't a drunk, and by so much as insinuating that he is is insulting enough. You are the one who brought up the notion of calling a man a loser because he likes beer. Obviously, that isn't the case.
What Palin said was inappropriate, plain and simple. I would have been equally been offended had she said "Captain couch potato". -
sorry, Anok...I thought most on this thread were pointing out the fact that Joe Six-Pack is always a loser term.
Look, as a former drinker, I know this is a delicate subject. So, again, I apologize for any perceived insinuation. -
Apology accepted. My husband is a good man, who only I can insult
But seriously, the term Joe six pack comes off as rude, snide, it's not a nice thing to call someone. It conjures up bad mental images. It has nothing to do with people who consume beer - but it's along the lines of calling someone a couch potato, or worse, white trash. or a "trailer park Suzy" - it's not something that should come out of the mouth of someone who wants to go to the Whitehouse. -
Thank you, Anok! Whooosh! That was close...I don't want to lose ya!
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No prob.
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I just had to take an excerpt from a post someone forwarded to me:
The tag “Joe Six-Pack” conjours up images of the drunk who sits on the couch, burping and farting and when life isn’t exciting enough, he beats his wife.
source: beingcanadian.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/joe-six-pack-and-a-hockey-mom-typica...
Gee...such anomosity!-
Well, yeah, that's what we're trying to say - it isn't the nicest thing to call someone.
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So are you saying the wifebeaters are trending toward McCain? That's pretty messed up if you are.
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I was pulling out an interesting comment...and I am saying nothing of the sort.
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And thus we see why words and terms need meaning...
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"Why on earth would you have something insulting to say about a man who"
Because saying something insulting is what Ruski does. Seemsto be what he lives for. That's pretty common among people whose self-esteem is so low that they can't validate themselves in any way except by putting others down.-
Ruskie and I have our back and forths - and disagreements about religion, but insulting my husband in that way I found to be surprising. He' snever flirted with that kind of insult before.
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please see apology above...knowing that the subject of alcohol can be sensitive.
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BTW..."liked his beer, vodka, gin, whiskey and tequila," was the ONLY thing I was relating to...nothing about any other negative assumptions.
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Well he did - and to be honest, rightfully so. He saw and did things that would drive any person to drink. He now suffers from a lot of physical and mental problems because of his experiences - he doesn't self medicate anymore, thankfully, but he still drinks from time to time.
It's never been an issue in our marriage or our home. -
Anok....you are awesome! And your husband is very fortunate.
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Thanks - I'm going to make sure to remind the Mr tonight just how lucky he is
I will say that he is a pain in the rear end, but he's the love of my life and I couldn't - and wouldn't live without him. ♥ -
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I think they should all join in with the Boy Scout moms and the left-handed Spanish teachers and form a "Made-Up Demographics Coalition."-
LOL!
Wow....you really "called me out" on that one!
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@Wisco...I take that as a "10" on the Cringe Factor for you?
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10+. These arbitrary demographics have no real reason for existing other than driving media narratives. The last time we let this thing get bogged down in a class war between nonexistent classes, we wound up with the dry drunk everyone most wanted to have a beer with.
Needless to say, I don't see casting the democratic process as a contest for the soul of a couple of invented special interests all that helpful. -
Well, the "demographics" you speak of in this case has two sides to it. One, is my made up "team" who we are all having some fun with and two, a sector that simply is uncomfortable with liberal leanings.
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Calling your average redneck joe six pack is kind of insulting.-
[wrong place]
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She was having FUN with it! And your "redneck" remark is the insulting one...but nevermind, there are some people that are redneck and Joe Six Pack that are proud of being so.
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Intellectuals drink beer too.
I've never met a hockey mom, but the field near my home is full of soccer moms and dads and their darling little ones on Saturdays. These people have license plates from southern Maryland and DC, heavily Democratic areas.
A bunch of the people who play softball, barbecue and drink beer at this park also vote Democratic.
"Made-Up Demographic" sounds about right.
I only cringed once on Thursday: when Palin claimed to represent the "heartland of America." Putting down the East Coast was a bit much too.-
You know that irritated me
Let's put down the East coast, lets alienate an entire coast - that aligns itself quite well with the west coast, in terms of similarities...that's a good idea. -
Mark,
Don't you think that line was put in there for electoral math reasons??
I seriously doubt she came up with it on her own. My theory on the 'folksy-ism' is that it's a cover for her to push buttons that appeal to or degrade certain *real* demographics and get away with it (because it's so gosh-darned cute).
EDIT:
What's funny is that, if she really *were* part of the western rural demographic, she would have referred to them as being "from Back East". It would have sounded a LOT more authentic and pushed on that East/West division a bit more. -
There are swing states on the East Coast. New Hampshire, Virginia, North Carolina. And Maine is not a winner-take-all state. In fact there, the younger demographic is going for McCain.
(Gosh darn those original colonies that founded this country and all. /end sarcasm.) -
I don't think appealing to East Coast voters is Palin's job. I think she's going for the rural midwest/plains/west vote, the farmer/rancher vote. Maybe they're leaving it to McCain or surrogates to lock up the Carolinas, Virginia, New Hampshire and the South. I don't know. I just don't think Palin's job is to go for those votes.
EDIT: Gosh darned those edit windows! Mark, I was born in VA and raised in NH... I know all about those places... Palin doesn't. -
Surely not.
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Hey, wait a minute... I'm a soccer mom! I have executive experience running my family... Do you think there's a place on any ticket for ME?!??
(/sarcasm, too)
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I like the way this was written about "Joe six pack".
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/looking_for_joe_six_pack;_ylt=AgUj0wsuV5u46c9Jn3wMlqFh2...
Here's a clip:
He likely drinks that six-pack at his kitchen table, where, if he's still married, he and his wife, Soccer Mom, talk about how it feels to personify Middle America and how Washington insiders are out of touch.
But at least they're better off than Six-Pack's cousin, Joe Lunchbucket, a working stiff who has to pack his own lunch and can't even afford beer. Nobody seems to mention him much. -
"How big a voting block is the Joe Six-Pack/Hockey Mom contingent?"
Assuming that these blatant transparent appeals to emotion just refer to suburban/rural middle-class workers, that is an extremely large voting block.
"Are the JSHMs strong enough to help defeat Obama Nation?"
The majority of middle-class voters probably support Obama already, so... no.
"How do Obama supporters counter the aggressive, appealing nature of Joe Six-Pack and Hockey Mom?"
Maybe by pointing out that these terms are just the result of an inexperienced VP candidate ignorant of major national issues making empty, insincere emotional appeals as a substitute for substance and rationality and to distract from the fact that the policies her ticket endorses are less beneficial to the middle class than Obama's.
"What is your cringe factor (if you have one) at the mere mention of Sarah Palin, Joe Six-Pack, and Hockey Mom?"
Pretty high. Sarah Palin has no business being on a presidential ticket and if she had any decency and really put "country first" she would step down. She has shown herself to be pathetically ignorant about major policy issues and like I said above, "Joe Six-Pack" and "Hockey Mom" are just an attempt at distracting from this, filler when she has nothing relevant to say, which is often. Everybody on both sides of the political spectrum was anxiously waiting to see if Palin could avoid looking like a complete retard at the debate with Biden.
Regardless of whether or not she came out of it okay, isn't the mere fact that people were waiting to see if she'd fall flat on her face a pretty strong indication that perhaps she is not fit for office? -
I cringed during the "shout out" portion of her debate. Coming off friendly and accessible is one thing. But things like shout-outs during important political-- possibly historical-- events doesn't show the respect these events merit. She was one step away from trying to get everyone to do the Wave.
And I don't really find that very "cute" or "charming."
Life is not, after all, a feel-good Hollywood movie plot where a hockey mom "maverick" shakes up Washington.-
But is life about calling George Bush dumb for 8 years? Or saying that the economy is all the Republicans fault?
Talk about "feel good"....not sure life is about getting caught up in "change we can believe in" and resting in one man to bring this about. -
How does any of that, though, relate to the presentation described above of Sarah Palin?
And where did I mention a word about George Bush, blame the Republicans for the economy, or even mention Obama? -
My comments are not directed at you specifically, but when you say that Palin's methodology or way is not about a feel-good Hollywood movie plot...I'm also saying that her oppositions' interpretation about what life is really all about can be ostricized as well.
I could just as easily say life is not, after all, a feel-good movie plot where a relatively unknown politician, gives football stadium-filled speeches, taps into the need for change...and shakes up Washington. -
So are you suggesting that because one party is using the change platform and some people indicate they feel inspired by it, we then must cease to examine, analyze or even form an opinion on the other candidate's tactics?
Especially when, as mentioned above, the behavior is directly contradictory to standard operating procedures in a respectful debate situation? -
1st question from TSR. Absolutely not (suggesting)! In fact, most of this election I have been merely playing "devil's advocate" if you will... of course being intelligent, analytical, and inquisitive are great approaches.
I think some people are undermining Palin too low and propping up Obama too high.
Obama has the advantage in that he is not running against Palin...but you sure would think so these days! -
BOTH campaigns are now using the CHANGE slogan.... It's just that one party means REAL CHANGE while the other equates CHANGE with STAY THE COURSE.
OR to put it another way...
One party is being truthful while the other party is lying for votes. -
The responses to Palin are largely because the behavior IS so far from what is considered professional political behavior in recent years.
And yes, you can go ahead and say that, "well, Bill Clinton had an affair, how professional is that?" Or "Biden makes gaffes." But that just shifts from the issue being discussed. It doesn't make the discussion any less worthwhile.
You can only learn if you analyze. You can't dismiss this thing because of that thing over there. -
Interesting that you would call her approach unprofessional....but, hey...
...that's why you're you and I'm me! (from Archie Bunker episode) -
Not even Palin would claim she was being professional. That would be too elitist and not maverick enough.
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...or mavericky.
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Mavericky indeed. You betcha.
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Has "betcha" been added to the Cringe List?
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If not yet... it will be soon.
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The other issue about Palin - isn't about Palin, but rather McCain's (or his manager's) judgment in picking her.
Even after the debate, she is still receiving heavy criticism - from her own party no less - about her qualifications for the job at hand, and McCain's reason for choosing someone so far out of her league.
The issue isn't even time spent in a governor's office anymore - it's her inability to campaign, interview or to answer questions (particularly about what the VP actually does) that has people worried about her, and McCain.
I mean, with all of the hubub about her not being properly vetted - I think that's shining through now. They are actually losing support of anyone who isn't and always will be hard right wingers. Those who are right of center are starting to come around and they're saying...wait a minute, she can't handle an interview with Couric, she can't answer question sin a debate - how is she going to handle world leaders?
And it reflects very poorly on McCain's judgment. Palin's inexperience serves as a nice excuse for her - but McCain knows better. -
McCain is a tactician, not a strategist. Besides the Palin pick, we saw it with the theatrical "suspension" of his campaign.
We know he likes to play craps. Don't know what else he's into, but I'm betting chess is not his game. -
@Anok...you are definitely in closed circles as reflected in your thoughts about Palin...she is rocking it in the campaign trail...getting thousands of people to come, and getting them to chant "USA"... "Drill, baby, drill" and the like. She, herself, is an asset in terms of likeability.
Did you miss the debate? She is not a question mark for as many people as you think. -
Erm, no actually I was responding to the republican analysis and reactions to Palin.
They, along with the rest of us, are not receiving her warmly. Of course, the Rep. journalists and analysts that have spoken out against her (who had previously spoken in favor of her) have immediately been labeled as traitors, fakes, and communists.
But still.
She has lost a great deal of ground - all one needs to do is read articles like (What RR posted up):
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/palin-v-biden#comment_608594
www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24291632-5012748,00.html (read the comments, which are up to date, even i fteh article was from last month)
features.csmonitor.com/politics/2008/09/30/doubts-about-palin-grow-even-amo... Christian science monitor! (I thought you'd like that one )
Random rep. blogger:
cdeemer2007.blogspot.com/2008/09/another-republican-woman-against-palin.htm...
www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1846065,00.html
Among the poll's most dramatic findings: McCain is losing female voters faster than Sarah Palin attracted them after the Republican National Convention. Obama leads McCain by 17 points with women, 55%-38%. Before the conventions, women preferred Obama by a margin of 10 points, 49%-39%. After McCain picked Palin as his running mate, the gap narrowed to a virtual tie, with Obama holding a 1-point margin, 48%-47%.
answers.polldaddy.com/viewPoll.aspx?view=results&id=968264
I mean, the list goes on
Also, from David Brooks, the right leaning politically analyst for Lerher:
Nonetheless, I do think there are fundamentals. It's very hard to win the party -- to win the presidency three terms in a row, for any party, no matter what the terms. The economy is what it is. These are pretty strong.
And then one thing -- Mark mentioned small-town values when talking about Michigan. You know, I think Sarah Palin did very fine last night by her own standards, but this has become -- the Republican Party has become a small-town party, running against -- as Sarah Palin did last night -- against big cities, against the East Coast, to some extent, against newspaper readers. -
@Anok...good research, but I'm guessing many of those opinions were before the debate....forged by the Katie Couric and whoever that other guy is interviews.
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@Ruski
Think again: tinyurl.com/3vaq8b
Also, the people showing up at Palin rallies are mostly, if not all, from the base - committed right-wingers, not undecideds. -
The strongest point against Palin is her inexperience. Period. Not her folksy nature, or perceived inability to answer questions from media that is in the tank for Obama, or anything else.
She is a good politician, as far as politicians go, with the unfortunate duty of being inside a terribly run McCain campaign. -
Well, no, actually she is being hammered about not answering questions. She has to be able to answer at least SOME questions, and even then, she needs to get the answers at least in the ballpark.
What a lot of people - republicans (And Kruathhammer has given up on McCain Palin, by the way) - are saying is that she's great, but not for VP. She makes a wonderful start up Governor. He resume is wonderful, for the position she already holds.
She's not just not ready - she's not even close. We're talking a t-ball player in the major leagues.
When she got on Fox news to comment about all of her other interviews - she complained COMPLAINED that they asked her questions, and didn't just let her talk about Obama. She whined that they kept asking her questions, and expected her to answer them, she said they "annoyed her" and they "ambushed her".
Keep in mind she has a degree in JOURNALISM. Hello.
She is turning people off. Everyday that she speaks, she is turning voters away. -
OK Anok...you don't like her and you agree with everyone that does not as well. That's why you are you and I'm me.
She has every right in the world to complain about mainstream media and their love affair with Obama. -
Yes, she has every right to complain about the MSM - privately.
She has no right to complain about them when asking her questions about why she is qualified to be the VP, or what her policy stances are during an election happens to not only be their JOB but in her best interest if she wants to get elected.
Complaining that she was "ambushed" with questions about things pertaining to the job she is campaigning for is like complaining that your employment interview had the audacity to ask for a resume, and asked you pointed questions during the interview.
Let's think about this logically, Ruskie.
If she can't handle soft soft ball stuff how will she handle foreign leaders who may or may not have any respect for a woman in a leadership position?
DOes she think they'll be nice to her while she's making preconditions, and threatening with them with sanctions? -
She isn't the only one complaining about MSM...I would point out the liberal slant in a heartbeat if I was running for office. Whether she is running for office or not has nothing to do with publicly calling out media in the tank with Obama.
Where are you finding these "rules?" -
Again, she could complain if the MSM took her answers out of context - giving it a slant she didn't want - she could complain if all they did was slander her night and day - but she can't complain because they asked her questions - by the media OR in a DEBATE that she consented to.
I mean, what does she think an interview is, exactly?
The public "Joe six pack" wants to know what her opinions are about policies. They want to know where she stand son issues. They want to know if she's qualified for the job. And she is required to do just that - as she is running for the office of a public servant.
Those are the rules of society. -
@Ruski
Another conservative writer not happy with Palin - A.D. (after debate)
This Debate's Biggest Loser
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/06/AR2008100602634.ht...
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Here're the tax returns for Joe and Jane Six-Pack: www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14266.html
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Consider this - her $147k - $197k yearly earnings in Alaska compared to the average wages in Alaska for 2008 are averaging at about $42600 per year (www.bls.gov/ro9/qcewak.pdf) and, in my home state, one of the most expensive cost of living states you can live in - the average wage is $60k per year.
The national poverty threshold for a family her size (six persons in the home) is $26k per year, an din Alaska, it's $33k per year. The poverty threshold where I live, for a family of three (or half her family) is $30k per year.
(aspe.hhs.gov/POVERTY/06poverty.shtml)
She is not impoverished, and CERTAINLY not middle class. The rest of the candidates are wildly wealthy, and we all know that. SO do they. But Palin and McCain are trying to paint her as the middle class standard, and she is no where even close.
From the article:
The McCain campaign also on Friday released a mandatory federal candidate disclosure statement for Sarah Palin, showing that the family has assets worth between $1 million and $2.4 million. But the couple’s lakefront home in Wasilla, Alaska, accounted for as much as half of that. And—on their taxes—they reported paying around $10,000 each year in interest on their mortgage, but also using their home as an office.
Yeah, how many regular folks have property and assets worth over $2 mill?
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Biden is actually probably worth less than I am, and after reading that most of his money was tied up in retirement plans and given his age he really needs the job....;)
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/MutualFunds/a-vice-president-like-t...-
Ouch
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Want some more silly demographics. How about the "Starbucks electorate"? www.csmonitor.com/patchworknation/csmstaff/2008/1006/for-both-obama-and-mcc...
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I dabble in Starbucks mochas about once every month-and-a-half and cross the "cultural latte divide"....and even then I feel guilty for spending close $3 for a glorified coffee.
I think that's a great post...Starbucks is definitely one of a few cultural thermometers that can tell us something about ourselves. -
I really don't like Starbucks, neither does my step father, but my brothers do.
We are all voting Obama! Hehehe -
I avoid Starbucks like the plague, but in DC I have options.
But how can you get a glorified coffee for only $3.00? Usually they require a deed to a medium-sized house in good condition. -
I know, only three bucks? It's a minimum of $5 here. Plus tip
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Joe Six Pack for gay men and straight women: tinyurl.com/4fcutb
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Heeelllloooooooo *drool*.
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I *told* you it was all about abs!
Have fun watching the debate tonight, folks.
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