Political Discussions
;longer school days?
Posted by xmarks • 9/27/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: school
Obama's proposing more time in school and more days in school
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school
User Comments
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That's too bad. I think it's good for kids to have time to make decisions for themselves. I don't think spending all substantial swaths of their growing up in a structured environment is healthy - and anyways the real problem with kids in school is that they won't work hard in the time they have, not that there isn't enough of it, and that's a much deeper problem then simple education and perhaps letting one generation get roasted for it early on would be a valuable lesson for the future.-
Measured by academic success, kids who spend more time in school do better. One could assume that leaving high school with better SAT's and GPA's could lead to more successful adults. Depending on how you define successful adult.
I differ on the problem a bit though. While I agree that they don't work hard enough in school, I would suggest a bigger problem is the number of hours they do not do on homework and related educational activities outside of school.
I forget the averages but the amount of time a typical teen spends on TV, chatting on the internet and computer games is huge per day. -
@xmarks: Does it really? I mean, if you have a kid who has done everything he is supposed to do from the time he was 6 and, as such, has gotten high grades but comes out of school and has NO CLUE what he wants to do with his life 1) is he successful? and 2) does he deserve to be? If you have too little idea of what you want to do with your life or who you are, you won't use that education. I know of lots of kids who would spend their summers building boats, working with their parents at trades, cooking up odd projects on the internet, or socializing with friends which, by the way, can sometimes include video games!
Beyond that, if they've developed in life to only do what they're told and not work hard, even if they're more successful academically, how will it help them? If all they can do is follow orders and think of nothing within themselves, I think they should be failed out of school and face the tough harsh real world until they shape up.
If I was in charge, I would mandate that every teacher at the high school level in tough academic subjects (Math, Social Studies, Science, English, Foreign Languages) fail at least 5% of their students. That way, parents couldn't complain when their student wasn't doing well in school because he was a lazy slob! -
How one measures successful adult is debatable which is why I called that out.
Personally, I think 5% is too kind and it should be across subject matters. Some schools are also stressing out of school opportunities as part of the program; internships, volunteer work, special projects, international travel etc.
Just because I advocate that more time should be in school (especially since the alternative seems to be video games and TV) does not mean that I'm recommending that it is all in classrooms taking orders. I'm doubting that most TV watching/video game playing kids are graduating with any better idea of where they want to be when they grow up. -
@xmarks: "I'm doubting that most TV watching/video game playing kids are graduating with any better idea of where they want to be when they grow up." But not everyone lives that way. What you are recommending would punish ability and reward inability and stifle all.
If they're not going to make the decisions when they're in school, and you make them for them, they're going to go back to being "TV watching/video game playing adults" as many are now when raised that way. It is better to let them roast in school and learn a valuable lesson, and then become serious adults, as many of my friends did when they failed at Tech. I only wish they could've failed sooner and not wasted their parents tuition money not to mention all those years of life. That is what I mean by learning. Let them roast in elementary school, set them off to the right beginning.
The point of the 5% cap is not to say that only 5% be failed but to punish over-lenient grading and create a new attitude through sanction. Also helps reply to parents who threaten teachers, reminding them that someone has to fail. Teachers are certainly allowed to fail over 5%, but I will allow for the possibility that a teacher, or a class, just happens to be better then most. This is a minimum, not an average. Also, as caspergirl pointed out below, it can work, as it does in Asian countries.
Also, having grown up in a school that had mandatory community service work, it tended to create an attitude of slavery and going through the motions for the sake of little pieces of paper. If kids are no one, they are nothing.
I am against all people who believe all good can be achieved through force. The slaves of coercion are worthless beings, deserving every ounce of the punishment they are promised even unto death. And they are worthless because they nothing inside of them but the darkness of fear and intimidation.
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Giving kids access to additional programs and a safe environment sounds good. But there needs to be balance. I was shocked by how little movement some kids are getting in school these days: less recess, gym classes that involve listening to the teacher talk about health . . . Kids need to move too. I would also be concerned about the types of programs being promoted. Is it all academic? Or will there be sports and the arts. Without movement and opportunities for creative work, we'll churn out kids who lack curiosity and creativity, which will be essential not only to their success as well-rounded human beings, but also as productive members of the economy.
By the way, a lot of European countries have shorter summer vacations. My sense is that we have them so long because of our agricultural past, but that word is relevant for the smallest number of people. And how many people have to fork out money for summer programs for their kids, or get in waiting lines for things they can afford. In DC, planning for summer camp begins in January or February.
Of course, schooling is a local, not a federal issue, though the federal government gets involved. Are any concrete policy proposals out there?-
In by second paragraph, "that word is relevant" should read "that world is relevant" . . .
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I don't think that it is necessarily a bad idea, but i do wonder how it will be funded. it is bound to cause a federal/state controversy -
Actually: Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013), However the reason for this is smaller classrooms and more one on one attention in school. Students are expected to excell and they are completly supported by parents. It is not that we need longer school hours, we need less students per teacher and more parental help.-
Awesome. And people who come out of those countries are much more thoughtful, capable, rooted, ambitious people then American kids tend to be these days too.
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These kids tend to also have a better understanding of their culture. In American schools culture is only taught if it is the culture of a minority. What we need is for our children to better understand the principles and concepts of our founding. -
I've seen in other articles where the average American is also spending significantly fewer hours a day doing homework and outside projects.
Anti: agreed. The whole program could use a revamp. -
@anti: But principles have to include cultural principles as well as government principles, because no one can understand themselves through laws and statutes that can be interpreted a million ways (even the constitution.)
In Japan, to teach their idea of community, if a student breaks a rule in class the whole class is punished. In America, we should teach the ways of honorable individualism, heroism, personal connectedness and loyalty, and self-definition that define our culture and way of life. -
I wonder if those asian countries allocate funds to schools based on the value of land within the school district?
lets face it. The single greatest impediment to a high STANDARD of education is unequal funding. -
@agit8r: Washington DC schools are many times better funded then Seattle schools, including relative to cost of living, but Seattle schools are better then DC schools.
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It's hard to generalize, JJ. Yes, on average, the results in the public schools in DC are pathetic. If you look at individual schools, things look better, especially in elementary schools, before parents pull their kids out of the public system.
The general trend in not enough play and creative time (www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/longer-school-days#comment_11390...) obtains in many charter an private schools too, though, and I doubt the that trend is limited to DC.
As far as CG's point goes, actual time in school is only one measure of what is going on. In Germany, for instance, kids only spend half a day in school, but then they get a lot of homework. That works if a parent is home. If not, things can get rough. My own experience with elementary school was that parents needed to devote a couple hours to homework daily, which is more than I saw in elementary school in the US. My understanding is that that is the same in high school, but I haven't experienced that first-hand in Germany. -
To address JJ's specific point, I should add that the DC example in no way invalidates the point that Agit8r makes about unequal funding. It is more about a mismanaged system.
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I suppose it depends on ones definition of "funding." When there is not the educational infrastructure in place, obviously there is a funding problem, whether it is lack of original funds or corruption.
www.publiceducation.org/mem_news/archive/20070222_Crumbling.asp -
That's one reason I am beginning to suck it in and not complain about the construction project across the street. Apparently that school was in bad shape too, as nice as it looked from the outside.
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many inner-city AND rural schools have funding problems that are directly related to the general level of ignorance.
Of course funding isn't the entire problem, but it is certainly a significant part. -
My brother works in the Federal Prison system and was transferred to Arkansas. He has told me that the difference in the schools there and here in Illinois is like night and day. Of course, Illinois has a much broader tax base for the schools, and that is a big problem in Arkansas. He has also said that where he lives, there are a great many illegal aliens and the language barrier for the teachers bogs down the classroom to the degree that less progress is made as a whole on the lesson plans. Since the schools there don't have the same tax base, and therefore less funding, they are not able to hire translators to facilitate the learning process. As a result, a great many educators there are looking elsewhere for jobs and the schools are losing good teachers.
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@Agit8r and Clio: Well then here's another example. There are schools in China that have only a teacher and a chalkboard and a single room but outcompete American schools at the Elementary level. If the teacher and the students are good enough, they can make up for that, and few people become teachers for pay so I'm guessing the price elasticity is pretty low. I think it's more an issue of values and corruption at the individual level. I've been to inner city areas, and the set of values advanced there is so antithetical to any kind of success in life that it is a wonder anyone escapes.
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anti: running with your example, I think we would find that there are greater concentrations of kids with additional needs in areas that can least afford them. by additional needs, I mean English as second language (illegal and legal), illiterate parents, etc.
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Asian students are also expected to sit quietly and listen to the teacher, rather than learning through constructivist method. (Though American schools aren't that good at constructivist teaching either). Schooling over there is extremely formal. I don't believe that's a good thing. -
I hear you. I've experienced this kind of student in both my English and history classrooms. It takes a lot of adjustment for them to get used to active learning, although they usually appreciate it once they've made the leap.
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@LITP: It's very adapted to their society, not ours. The main problem with American schools is instead of adapting to our society they fight against it at every turn, making their own students their own worse enemies.
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how do thet "fight against" our society?????
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For starters, they try to kill off most individual incentive and America's tradition of masculinity. They also teach students a very lopsided view of aspects of American history that tries so hard to be not too pro-American that it kind of overshoots and becomes Anti-American (hard to get the right balance when every historian has an opinion.) In addition, they take a approach to grading that is extremely risk-averse and one-hit-dead. They also tend to teach a lot of social values with regards to forced service, sexuality, ownership of property, puritanical nonviolence et cetera that barely fit in any part of America and only slightly work in New England. They also try to force students to be as bland as possible in papers to make them easier to grade and teach.
In addition, they teach extreme legalism in adherence to rules et cetera that there is no mandate for, rather then a more honor-based, relationship-based approach that, on one hand, can be very bad if you're on the teachers bad side, but could be very good if you're on the teachers good side. -
" they try to kill off most individual incentive and America's tradition of masculinity."
um... they still had dodgeball when i was in school. Also, i wonder how blatantly man-hating the tradition of "Pep Rallies" is...
"history that tries so hard to be not too pro-American that it kind of overshoots and becomes Anti-American"
I don't see how. They question the virtue of state. is that bad for society?
"They also tend to teach a lot of social values with regards to forced service, sexuality, ownership of property, puritanical nonviolence et cetera"
What school district did YOU go to? I recall the chastity motivational speaker... The anti-piracy guest speaker... the Military recruiter tables in the lobby...
The rest of those might be legit gripes, but i don't know if they are indicative of an adversity to "American Society"
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I don't think longer hours in school would help because the kids won't be able to take in what they're being taught if they're too tired to learn. But the longer school year or some type of year round schooling is proving to be more and more successful in a lot of places.
If we didn't "cram" all the school year material in 9 months of school like we do now (at least that's how it is in the US) and "stretch" it out over say 10 to 11 months (given several week or two week periodic breaks), kids may be less likely to forget the material they've been learning and have some continuity of learning to the next school year. It would also leave them little time to "lose interest" in a subject and allow them to keep pursuing that interest instead.-
If you don't give kids a few months off, they won't have time to truly find themselves. Some parents will let them watch TV all day instead, but that's the parents fault and we shouldn't penalize good parents for the conduct of bad.
"It would also leave them little time to "lose interest" in a subject and allow them to keep pursuing that interest instead."
In my personal experience, losing interest only happens when a) overworked or worked in an unhealthy manner (like professors who teach math courses as memorization) or b) interest is gained and reevaluated in a new area. -
Some school systems have gone to year around schooling but the kids have the same number of days off. Just several shorter than summer breaks throughout the year. It does allow younger kids to explore several different experiences of 2 - 3 weeks at a time each year. It does not really allow for kids to have a summer job or summer internship that goes for 2 - 3 months though.
The finding is that the school has to spend less time on refreshing material lost over summer break. -
@xmarks: I understand what you're talking about with regards to refreshing material, but another way out of that is simply saying "THIS IS SPARTA!!" and making that the responsibility of the individual student. Personally, I think it's better to have the days off in one long block as it grants greater freedom to the student in how they use it (jobs and internships for instance) and also would discourage them from using it for TV and Video Games, which if they're tired from school they're more likely to use it for while if you make it months and months they're more likely to tire of such or try something new.
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it would leave them less time to do drugs from Mexico?
could be a national security bonus-
But that could hurt the weapons industry
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they can still keep selling to all the fundamentalist Islamic autocracies in the world
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Actually no, they use more weed when school is in because all their friends (and dealers) are still in school and thus in town.
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