Political Discussions
Toledo Blade Newspaper: Joe is not a plumber
Posted by satijournal • 10/16/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: election, mccain, obama, palin, politics
"Joe the Plumber" isn’t a plumber — at least not a licensed one, or a registered one.
Mr. Wurzelbacher told reporters Thursday morning that he worked for Newell Plumbing & Heating Co., a small local firm whose business addresses flow back to several residential homes, including one on Talmadge Road in Ottawa Hills.
According to Lucas County Building Inspection records, A. W. Newell Corp. does maintain a state plumbing license, and one with the City of Toledo, but would not be allowed to work in Lucas County outside of Toledo without a county license.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he works under Al Newell’s license, but according to Ohio building regulations, he must maintain his own license to do plumbing work.
He is also not registered to operate as a plumber in Ohio, which means he’s not a plumber.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he was hired by Mr. Newell six years ago and that the possibility of him eventually buying the company was discussed during his job interview.
He said it’s his understanding he can work under Mr. Newell’s license as long as the licensed contractor works on the same site.
Mr. Wurzelbacher said he is working on taking the Ohio plumbing contractors’ license test.
Mr. Wulzerbacher’s notoriety has raised the ire of Tom Joseph, business manager for Local 50 of the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, who claimed that Mr. Wulzerbacher didn’t undergo any apprenticeship training.
"When you have guys going out there with no training whatsoever, it’s a little disreputable to start with," Mr. Joseph said. "We’re the real Joe the Plumber."
"This individual has got no schooling, no licenses, he’s never been to a training program, union or non-union, in the United States of America," Mr. Joseph said.
The association has endorsed Barack Obama, according to Mr. Joseph.
Court records from a divorce show Mr. Wurzelbacher made $40,000 in 2006.
www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418
User Comments
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And we are not talking about the economy. Score one for McCain.-
Not for a few hours, anyway.
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I wonder if this plumber would even be able to open a business in this climate. He'd need a loan for the purchase. Then he'd need to get his parts financed by the distributors . . . And the credit markets have seized up. Course he'd need a license too.
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well that would depend on the deal now wouldn't it?
I just completed a transaction where not a cent traded hands with between the seller and buyer.
no loans were taken, and no owner financing deal was set up.
I guess when you know how things work, this isn't so complicated. -
Did your parents deposit your allowance directly into your piggy bank?
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No never had one. why?
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Wow, no money traded hands, no financing, and no loans? Sounds like bartering to me
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Not very capitalist, huh?
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He wouldn't need a license to own a plumbing company, just to do any actual plumbing. Joe the Plumber may not be a plumber, but that doesn't mean he's not Joe the Venture Capitalist.
Personally, I think he's Joe the Rightwing Plant. -
He admitted to NPR that he had no business plan and no concrete way of realizing the idea. So scratch the entremeurial thing too. (repeat link from below: www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95799684)
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(wrong place)
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Well, just because he isn't actually a plumber doesn't mean Obama has the right to deny Joe the American dream of one day becoming a plumber.
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And just because Obama doesn't have that right, doesn't give you or McCain the right to lie about Obama trying to do that. This is a hypothetical example about a non-existent small business about a guy with no business plan who still owes some $1200 in back taxes to Ohio. Get real.
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And even if all the facts were true, Obama's plan to have lower income taxes for incomes and business profits below $250k would actually help Joe earn enough to buy the business.
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The plumber owes Ohio back taxes, and he doesn't have a business plan for the example he used of buying a business. He just likes complaining.
Here's the NPR story in brief. The audio I just heard on the radio will be available by about 7:00 pm EST. www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95799684 -
More on Joe the plumber:
www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/16/joe.plumber/index.html
"I was just really surprised that my name was mentioned," he told reporters after the debate. "I think it helped them get their points across, so I was happy about that."
"You notice John [McCain] continues to cling to the notion of this guy Joe the Plumber," Biden said on NBC's "Today" show. "I don't have any Joe the plumbers in my neighborhood that make $250,000 a year that are worried."
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350. -
Okay, a more detailed story on the three things McCain learned that he probably wishes he had known before last night. www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14652.html Poor Senator McCain. (Yeah, that's Schadenfreude you smell. Shame on me.)
The article begins thus: "John McCain hung his final presidential debate performance on an Ohio plumber who campaign aides never vetted." Unfreakingbelievable.-
You know where the article says the campaign learned about their plumber? On the Drudge Report. And not vetting. Unfreakingbelievable. Makes the Bush administration look good by comparrison.
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Joe is done...by what...about noon tomorrow?
Actually, I guess Huckabee has him on his show Saturday night. -
Oh my goodness the media has to go so low as to rip into the background of Joe the Plumber. Yawn. Joe is really a metaphor for the extreme left's plan on redistribution of wealth. Who cares about what Joe is really all about. The real issue is that Obama made it clear that he plans on taking from those who make 250K including small businesses and giving to the poor. He blatantly admitted it during his discussion with Joe [real name Samuel] and during the debate.
Let's look at the reality.
Obama along with Pelosi, Dodd, Reid and Frank plan on taxing those who make 250K and over including small businesses. So let's say for example Joe has a plubming business that grossses 250,000. He has 3 employees that make 25,000. He spends 20000 on supplies, gas, and other things that contribute to the surivial of the business. So for argument sakes that takes 95,000 dollars away from the 250K. And Obama doesnt say whether he is going to take the 39% in taxes from the gross or the net. So we will go with the gross. If the tax is 39% of 250K subtract 85K-90K from 250K and you have about 160K now subtract expenses and salary and now Joe has 60K left for him. Now remember he will not qualify for the tax breaks that Obama has for the middle class because he is not middle class with the 250K. So Joe will most likely have to fire a few employees. Lovely.
It is a trickle down effect people. He wants to create more jobs but he is taking away the money from these small busineses and corporate business that employ the middle class and guess what the middle class won';t have jobs. Stop trying to scrutinize Joe, who cares. He is just being used as an example of what the devastating effect is going to be on the American People. And it is a proven fact that you cannot do this during a recession. And folks we are in a recession. When you raise taxes during a recession it is inevitable you will have a depression. Why? Because you will have no jobs. And when you have no jobs you have people with no money and when people have no money they don't have any purchasing power and with no purchasing power the economy will collapse. Businesses will close across the nation. YOu don't have to believe me. You can argue with me but the proof will be in the pudding. Marx my word. This is a free market, capitalisitc nation. Why does everyone want to exist in a socialistic nation like Europe and Australia...people wake up. I am scared to fricken death...you should be too. I am not anti Obama I am anti this extreme left thinking. Obama thinks he is going to bring money into the economy by cutting capital gains taxes. Well who the hell has capital gains. The smart already took their money out of the market and they ain't going to put it back in but for the short sellers and hedge funds taht will pull it right back out. And those that left their money in the market like me has lost more than 75% of their toal value. I only care about taxes. And taxes are going to be the death of us. And the death of our nation. So instead of just bashing on stupid things let's for a moment talk intelligently. Itis called using your noggin. But alas most don't have it...as I have seen. Geez voting for someone because they act more presidential....holy moly . Let;s see if the smooth talking presidential head can save this country. Amen-
It is a trickle down effect people.
"Trickle down" has been pretty thoroughly debunked. The only thing that trickles down is loss, because Wall Street reverse-socialists nationalize it. Wealth moves up the ladder, not down. -
"Marx my word?" Will do, comrade. The proletariat will jot that down.
In the meantime, I'll tell you a scary story... it's about 1955 when the top marginal tax rate was 91% for income over $400,000!!!
(cue the dramatic chipmunk)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40 -
re the "Trickle-down" effect, I once knew this guy who was, um, a plumber, he worked for Roto-Rooter, and his favorite saying was,
Sh*t always flows downhill.
Seems like the same principle applys to the much-vaunted, and now thoroughly debunked, "trickle-down" effect. -
Taxable income is pretty well defined. 1.) It is after deductions. 2.) 39% is the marginal rate. That means that Joe will only pay 39% on taxable income of $250,001 and higher, not on the whole thing.
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"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters in the United States in 2007 was $47,350."
And the plumbers and pipefitters are getting paid by who???? So when their bosses who own the company they work for have to pay enormous taxes, they won't have jobs anymore so I guess your point is moot. -
And the plumbers and pipefitters are getting paid by who???? So when their bosses who own the company they work for have to pay enormous taxes, they won't have jobs anymore so I guess your point is moot.
Yeah, because when you raise taxes, society collapses and it's Lord of the Flies, man... Lord of the Flies!
I'm not sure what I find funnier, that conservatives always trot out the same boogeymen, despite the fact that they never actually materialize, or that they think people are dumb enough to believe it. -
What????? Wisco you need to slowly read what I said...do you need a yellow highlighter.....??? I did not say wealth moves down the ladder...read it again and get back with me!
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So if we return tax rates on people who make over $250,000 to what they were during the economic boom of the 90s, it's going to be a disaster for the economy?
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It is a trickle down effect people. He wants to create more jobs but he is taking away the money from these small busineses and corporate business that employ the middle class and guess what the middle class won';t have jobs
I love how people who make these arguments totally ignore the existence of the retail level. It's not an arrow pointing down, it's a loop. But the loop is topheavy, with most of the wealth staying at the top. If the people at the bottom have more money, the people at the top make more money. If the people at the top pay more taxes, the people at the bottom have a smaller percentage of the tax burden.
Taxes on the top earners have been much, much higher in the past. Yet -- oddly -- the economy didn't turn into a trainwreck. In fact, it didn't even slow it down. Under Eisenhower, during the glorious fifties that conservatives pine for, the top tax rate was 91%, right now it's 35%, 36%... to tell the truth, I forget. [www.eisenhowerfoundation.org/formulate_economic.php]
Was Ward Cleaver a victim of massive unemployment? Did Ozzie Nelson lose his home? No. Your boogeyman is a straw man, not born out by history. Obama's top tax rate would be 39%. Wow, how awful! -
Wisco wrote, "Under Eisenhower, during the glorious fifties that conservatives pine for, the top tax rate was 91%"
That's right, and we had very little debt back then with the booming economy. -
@LG: Try talking to people instead of at them. You might find it works better. Just saying.
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I couldn't resist commenting on what this unvetted example says about McCain's leadership style. Sure, it's just a metaphor, but it's a metaphor attached to a real person who was all over the media today and who McCain wants to be in the media, because he doesn't want to talk about the economy while pretending he is. markstoneman.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/john-mccains-recklessness/
Heaven help me, but I also said something good about McCain today. Poor guy has to shoulder the burden where most in his party were unwilling to step up to the plate and put themselves through a campaign after such a ruinous presidency. markstoneman.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/mccain-and-self-sacrifice/ -
Now how's about talking economic facts instead of distractions and ideology?
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Well, golly, Sarah Palin said something today that I enjoyed. Who'd've thunk it?
“I begged our speech writers, 'Don’t make me say Joe the Plumber, please, in any speeches.’”
www.politico.com/gameday/1008/gameday10172008.html (Quote of the Day)-
She must want to stick to the Bill Ayers talking points.
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Nah, she thinks Joe SixPack is cuter. And, of course, he has beer.
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Who cares if Joe "the Plumber" is not a plumber, but a carnival barker, music teacher, garbage man, or traveling salesman? His question was hypothetical, simple, a good one: Would he be punished for the work, drive, and ambition to own a plumbing company earning more than %250,000 by greatly increased taxes. I can certainly understand why he would be upset by Obama's "spread the wealth around" answer.
Way back in l975 I sold my little publishing company, laid off my 14 employees, and, in effect, told the government to "eat dirt." I wasn't about to keep up with my 12-hour work days, 6 days a week only to line the pockets of the bureaucrats, so that they could merely re-distribute it to others who didn't work. Hard work pays off (only to a limited extent, after taxes) in the future. Laziness pays off now.-
You sold your business because you didn't want to pay taxes? I find that just a little hard to believe.
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Yeah, Ben, I just got a whiff of horse manure myself.
And by the way, how much could that unlicensed plumber be earning if he owes Ohio $1200.00 in back taxes? That's too low a bill for his question to be anything but rhetoric and fantasy. -
Business making less than $250k taxable income (that's probably a couple mil in revenue) will be paying less taxes. This will help them grow faster than before. Those who don't want to be big will be replaced by the growing smaller businesses.
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I find it funny that people believe that if everyone just worked harder, they'd make more and be successful (monetarily speaking).
In capitalism, there is always a financial hierarchy. Just as soon as one class becomes wealthier, another class becomes the poor class - even if they are making more than the poor class before them - they will still be poor because the cost of living will rise with the wages.
And why is it that everyone assumes that the poor don't work? Does no one pay attention to the minimum wage workers who are cleaning the office buildings inhabited by so many wealthy people? Do people not notice bathroom attendants, and maintenance workers in malls, casino's and other large areas for people to shop and enjoy luxuries?
How about all of the adults working as cashiers and baggers at grocery stores? Waitresses and waiters? Room service attendants and so forth?
How about that guy pumping your gas, or changing your tires at the local garage?
Does anyone here actually believe that all of the jobs and people overlooked everyday that serve your every need make loads of money? That they have a pension or 401k? That they have health insurance, sick days, or vacation pay?
12 hours a day, pushing paper around a desk for a nice paycheck... Poor you!
For the rest of us "poor people" 12 hours a day would be a nice change from back breaking labor gathering up the oysters that sell at such a high price to people who can afford to eat them for a whopping $10 per hour for your trouble. (Or less, if you live outside my state - $10 per hour here isn't a living wage).
How about the waitress pulling double shifts from 11 noon to 3 am just to pay the rent, busting her ass 7 days a week?
Or what about people like me - before I had a kid And, was actually pregnant - working a regular nine to 5 job and then off to work from 5:30 to midnight 5 days a week, and pulled 16 hour shifts on the weekends?
Yeah, us 'poor people" don't work and are just looking for a handout. We are SO lazy.
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The only one who makes sense is Jack Payne...And bother way....I was just watching CNN, and they were talking about whether the tax was on 250K gross or net and the Obama campaign spokeswoman said it would be off the gross. NOT THE NET!!!! So again, small business person makes 250K gross they pay the increased tax on the gross...before paying the employees and before paying for supplies etc., and can you believe it, it was CNN and not FOX...I noticed how the newscaster was flatummeled and had no comeback....she had to cut to a break....I guess CNN thought the spokeswoman thought she was going to say off the net which would be better for Obama.....too bad....the truth got squirted out...let's see if this news gets out!
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Please post the link to which you are referring.
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Well, since businesses are taxed on profit, and not revenue - I highly doubt it.
economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/tax-advice-for-joe-the-plumber/
Was Joe the Plumber talking about revenue or profit when he said how much his company makes?
Joe said:
“I’m getting ready to buy a company that makes $250,000 to $280,000 a year. Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn’t it?”
If he was talking about revenue, then Senator Obama’s plans probably will not affect him. Taxes on corporations are based on profit, not on revenue, and so Senator Obama’s $250,000 threshold refers to profits above $250,000. (Which Joe’s company cannot be making if it is bringing in $250,000 in revenue but has even 1 cent in expenses.)
How is the company structured?
Most small business are incorporated as “S-corporations” (named after section S of the Internal Revenue Code). These companies do not pay corporate income taxes; instead, the profit is taxed on the company’s shareholders’ personal income tax returns. In other words, if Joe’s company is an S-corporation, Joe will essentially report the company’s profit as personal income, and it will be taxed at personal income tax rates.
So, assuming he does not take any deductions, Joe’s taxes might go up under Senator Obama’s plan, which would raise taxes on any personal income above $250,000. Only the amount above $250,000, though, would be taxed at a higher rate; tax rates on the first $250,000 remain the same or go down under Senator Obama’s plan. (These rates apply to people who are married, by the way, which for the sake of simplicity I am claiming Joe to be, since the initial debate provoked by the Obama-Joe exchange was around that $250,000 cut-off for married couples.)
Some small businesses are instead structured differently. They may be, for example, “C-corporations,” named after a different section of the Internal Revenue Code.
Under this legal structure, the company pays taxes on its profits at the corporate income tax rate, not the personal income tax rate (unlike in an S-corporation). Senator Obama has not proposed to raise corporate income tax rates on businesses of this size. Therefore, the taxes Joe pays would remain unchanged. Unless, that is, he pays himself a salary of more than $250,000, or pays himself a dividend. -
A few people use "gross" to mean "gross sales"
Many use "gross" to mean "gross profit"
Neither actually applies to taxes because neither equates to "taxable income", although "gross profit" is much closer than "gross sales"
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Hey let me ask you this; do you think welfare fraud will go up? Do you think those that don't work ie: homeless or very poor will spend their welfare checks on food, shelter, books and supplies for their kids??? I want to know what you think? And what you base from your experience how you come up with the answer
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I'm a paralegal and a librarian. I asked you a simple question ie. to supply your source. Instead of doing so you went off on a tangent.
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What have you got against the poor? And how would a tax policy on businesses profiting $250k or more have to do with welfare fraud?
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Time thief no link: it was on CNN.....I did not read it I SAW IT ON TV
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Thanks for your answer.
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You do realize that CNN lists their programs, often have video clips, and sometimes even transcripts.
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I hope you are not calling me a liar....???/I know you would not do that?
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What the heck is the matter with you? I asked you a simple question and you ended up posting 4 times back to back, in essence, speaking to yourself.
Then you had the audacity to imply that I had called you a liar when I had not done so. Perhaps it's time for you to up your meds.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU
Here is a great link! Obama supporters are smarter than you think!-
What does Howard stern have to do with tax policies?
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Nothing.
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Ohhhh there we go with the meds.....thing....did I hit a nerve...wow...name calling backlashing in such a mean way....wow!! But I hvae to respect the fact you are a librarian....good for you. And para legal...wow...good for you.....I applaud your education...and a paralegal....I am just a legal secretary....nothing really much there...never went to college...
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No, not hit a nerve - just posted erratically. You are the second poster to come in and post strange responses to no one in particular - sometimes not having anything to do with the conversation at hand.
By the way? That [reply] link at the bottom right hand corner of the post is what you click to indent your reply, so we know who you are talking to.
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I always wanted to be a paralegal.....is it fun? What type of law do your work with?
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Oh sorry Anok thanks for the tip.....sorry I have ruffled feathers...
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It's no problem- just the board can take some getting used to. Sometimes threads get so long that the reply button is necessary, and, some even longer that just typing @whoever to make sure everyone knows who you are responding to just to make it all clear is needed.
It helps the flow of conversation.
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I actually don't see a reply button on the bottom, only when my post is posted. For instance I only see [report] on your post
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Right, you would, in a sense, be replying to yourself - but it will appear right under my reply.
The Admin didn't want to fuss with a collapsible never ending debate type forum format (who can blame them?) so this is as good as it gets!
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Right, you would, in a sense, be replying to yourself - but it will appear right under my reply.
The Admin didn't want to fuss with a collapsible never ending debate type forum format (who can blame them?) so this is as good as it gets!
[report]
Anok not to beat a dead horse....but I cut and pasted your reply and this is what I see....no reply button...anywho.....I really love debating....it is fun....I suppose there is nothing I will be able to see for people to see the light....but I have quite a bit of experience with the real world...and see some awful stuff...and I wish I could relate that to more people that are unknown to me....but I can't and it frustrates me-
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But it's so hard.
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All I can say for those who think a 12-hour day involves only "pushing paper" around,not worrying about payrolls, juggling paper deliveries in carload lots, haggling over printing contracts, and keeping all your customers happy by hook or crook, writing copy, dealing with the Post Office, and assorted other miseries, I have a different tack. I actually followed through on this different tack. I said the Hell with it, chucked my business, settled down to writing books only, and thumbed my nose at the system.
That was 33 years, ago and I've thoroughly enjoyed every ensuig year of laziness that followed.-
Yeah, but that says nothing about the people like my husband and I who do back breaking physical labor and 12 hours a day is a minimum- and still don't make enough money to get by.
We're tired of being called "lazy" and "unproductive". We're tired of hearing about all of the "handouts" we get while contributing nothing to society.
What handouts? What laziness?
I'm tired of it. Poor families are constantly being portrayed as some sort of whiny lazy beggars who want the world on a silver platter - well....we don't. We just want to live comfortably, and not worry every month that we won't have enough money to pay our rent - or trying to find ways to skimp wherever we can to make ends meet.
There are millions of families in America right now who are going through this and worse. Families whose kids have to go to school extra early and stay extra late in before and aftercare programs at school because mommy and daddy are too busy working and can't afford a babysitter, and can't afford to spend the kind of time with their kids that their kids deserve because making ends meet is even harder now than it has been for along time.
Yet, families like this are painted as welfare scamming frauds, and layabouts.
I'm tired of it - and yes - a desk job consists of pushing paper around. I'd rather worry about payroll and invoices than whetehr or not I can pay the rent, or feed my child any day. -
"People like my husband and I who do back breaking physical labor and 12 hours a day is a minimum- and still don't make enough money to get by."
12 hours a day. and since you claim you both do it. Then thats 60 hours per person. Even At minimum wage that comes out to a Per person of:
40 hours at $6.55
20 hours at $9.825
Per person and week $458.50
For the two of you, that means you earn a household income of $47.684
The Us national median income per household was $50,233.
Maybe you need to learn to manage your finances if you can't make ends meet. With 47.7k a year, you are far from poor. -
And with Obama's tax plan, Anok would see $1,000-$1,500 in tax savings, as opposed to $322-$344 with McCain's plan. That's 3-4 times as much $$$ staying in her and her husband's pocket.
* Rough estimate based on CSI's calculations + 1 child + no mortgage. The savings would be even higher if mortgage was figured in.
taxcut.barackobama.com/ -
Shorter CSI: You're lazy and you suck at math.
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I no longer work those hours - however - you forget the $20,000 per year that daycare would cost us right off the bat (Between 380-400 per week is average here)- which leaves us at about $27k per year to live on. That's $2250 per month. The only frivolous cost we pay is this internet connection of $50 per month. We have no credit card debt, we don't go out, and we don't shop for clothes or toys. No car payments or anything. All cost of living expenses are non negotiable.
Where I live the poverty threshold for a family of three is $30k per year. Which makes us dirt poor. Of course, you forgot to take regional differences into account, and child care costs because you just assume everywhere else is cheap like Florida.
Where I live the average person makes $10 per hour, and the new studies show that a single childless person needs to make a minimum of $14.25 per hour in order to be able to pay all cost of living expenses, and put away a bit for savings.
Just to give you an idea of what we pay every month;
Rent: $1200
Student loan; $83
Gas heat: $130 in summer, $400+ in winter. (It averages to about $230 per month give or take)
Electricity: $115 give or take
Insurance: $130
Phone: $30
Internet/TV: $50
Total cost of living for basic expenses: $1838 leaving us with $412 to buy groceries, gas to get my husband to work, and basic living things for Punky, such as clothes and shoes.
The average grocery shopping trip - at the discount grocery store - is $83 per week. That eats up $332 of our $412.
Next time you criticize someone about their income - call them lazy - or stupid maybe you should get all the facts, thankyouverymuch.
Like child care.
By the way, as a stay at home mom I do back breaking physical labor and child care labor 24 hours a day - I'm on for 18 hours, and on call for the rest.
And I don't get paid a dime for it, either. -
Oh, and there's one more thing Erik conveniently forgot - most jobs don't offer overtime (my husband's does not) - so those 60 hours are split between a 40 hour full time job and a 20 hour part time job - which means NO overtime pay.
Of course, we're just lazy and stupid, I forgot. -
"so those 60 hours are split between a 40 hour full time job and a 20 hour part time job - which means NO overtime pay."
That's BS! How do they get away with that?? -
Two different employers. The only time you have to pay overtime is if you work over 40 hours for one employer.
My husband's employer has cut back hours for the winter - so overtime or any chance of it is gone
In other news, in our area - two of the largest employers here have now laid 2,700 and 800 employees + 80 contracted business (hundreds of employees each) respectively. The third largest employer laid off 800 employees a little while back. *sigh* That's like, 12,000 + jobs that have been lost in the last year here.
That's just the county where I live -
Sometimes the less you make, the harder you have to work.
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That's exactly right, Sati. The low wage jobs are physically demanding, and, often require you to take on several jobs.
My husband's last employer does routine layoffs for the winter months, during that time, he took a job that nearly killed him physically, but it was the only job available AND it offered overtime.
But damn, talk about a demanding job. It required a minimum of 12 hours a day of non stop hauling of 100+ pound bags and nets. It's not a job for the weak of heart - or back!
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