Political Discussions
Town Hall War?
Posted by Agit8r • 8/07/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: healthcare town hall meetings, mobsters vs. goons, stirring the pot
Who's your money on in the showdown of Goons vs. Mobsters at these "townhall" meetings?
www.pww.org/article/articleview/16663/
www.dakotavoice.com/2009/08/interview-with-kenneth-gladney-man-assaulted-by...
And yes, I tried to get the perspective of the extremes, as it were 
User Comments
-
The lefties are getting a dose of their own medicine and isn't liking it one bit.
I hope they keep the namecalling up of the people that attend these meetings and are being called everything from Extremists to Mobs and whatnot.
It's pissing people off and making the right grow stronger all the time.
2012, Because misstakes can be corrected. -
Nancy Pelosi is throwing out the N word now. Nazi and she just doesn't want to got their that rat loving old plastic fart.-
got a quote on that JH?
-
I thought she was using the apt "A" word: astroturf. -
Hitler invented Astroturf, right?
-
-
Nancy Pelosi is throwing out the N word now. Nazi and she just doesn't want to got their that rat loving old plastic fart.
-
I got a link on Pelosi's words (from a right-wing source nonetheless). None of them is actually "the N word" o_0
www.newsmax.com/insidecover/pelosi_limbaush_swastikas/2009/08/07/245316.htm...-
Ah, so Limbaugh is using the "Nazi" reference.
Seems one could almost set the schedule of right-wing posts here by whatever his kind says.
Limbaugh needs to look in a mirror.
-
-
Here's one supposedly outraged Mom mom who was really just a GOP official:
tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/grassroots-protester-actually-gop-offic...
Astroturf. -
Just saw it on the FOX news like 2 seconds ago
-
she said "these town hall Mobsters are Nazis"?!?
really? o_0 -
I seriously doubt that, even if Fox and its viewers could never err. Still, I do recall Nazis rioting so badly at events they didn't approve of that they had to shut down. Specifically, I'm thinking showings of "All Quiet on the Western Front in 1930."
-
-
Hey thats what I heard. I don't have a link for tv
-
she said the word "nazi" on audio/video? I'm asking
-
*If* she did, it'll be up on YouTube soon enough.
-
from what I understand (from listening to Hannity on radio) she referenced signs showing a swastika crossed out with a no-sign (which appearently compares end of life counceling to Nazi euthanasia) and condemned such as extremist.
I've not seen or heard audio/video of Pelosi saying "Nazi" -
This is just more dishonest spin coming from the fringe. It's the far right zealots who are fanning the flames of Nazism and violence.
ADL Condemns Nazi Slurs in Health-Care Debate
voices.washingtonpost.com/health-care-reform/2009/08/adl_condemns_nazi_slur...
Limbaugh compares Obama's new healthcare logo to Nazi swastika
latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2009/08/rush-limbaugh-compares-new-heal...
Rush Limbaugh compares Obama to Hitler... The Democratic Party to Nazis
www.mediamatters.org/research/200908060022 -
Is anyone else tired of RR complaining about everything Conservative with his pointless bold talking points that nobody reads? We all know you hate liberty and freedom so why keep chiming on the Conservative party? Kinda pointless ain't it?
-
jhix, that's what drones do. That is all they are capable of.
But in all fairness, Rush has a point. I mean look at them...
They do look alike, lol. What a great man El Presidente is. But it is odd that the points Rush brings up seem very similar to the Dems...well, here. Let's look at what he said.
"Well, the Nazis were against big business -- they hated big business. And of course we all know that they were opposed to Jewish capitalism. They were insanely, irrationally against pollution. They were for two years mandatory voluntary service to Germany. They had a whole bunch of make-work projects to keep people working, one of which was the Autobahn. They were against cruelty and vivisection of animals, but in the radical sense of devaluing human life, they banned smoking. They were totally against that. They were for abortion and euthanasia of the undesirables, as we all know, and they were for cradle-to-grave nationalized healthcare."
This should infuriate ruin, lolololol. -
I wonder where Rush gets such information...
-
They're called writers, Agit8r.
anticsrocks, would it be too much to expect that you understood the difference between the symbols you're looking at? And funny how you get all in a huff when I point out that your hatred of the government must extend to hatred of the military, but you have no problem dishonoring the deaths of tens of millions in an effort to score a point here. Nice. -
Oh mark, if I didn't give you a reason once in a while to talk down to me, you would become so depressed...
What I said was not aimed specifically at you, or anyone else here on BC. What you said was directed specifically at me. Big difference.
-
-
Here's the part about these nuts that bothers me:
tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encou...
It recalls the days of the militia movement, and that sure when well, as residents of Oklahoma City certainly recall.-
Only these people—consciously or not—are doing the bidding of insurance and pharmaceutical corporations afraid of regulation.
-
-
Those who are not supporters are not allowed in... Democracy in action..
Kathy Castor's "townhall" meeting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3QeH-z2CbU&feature=related-
That is shocking, csi! I mean isn't this the administration of honesty and transparency? It would seem to me that El Presidente would be mad as hell at any Democrats who kept honest, everyday folks out of their town hall meetings.
*blinks*
Right? -
Obviously people who did not suport her were let in.
"There were people spread throughout the crowd who continually yelled every time an example is when Kathy Castor spoke," Watson said, "She would start a sentence and all the sudden yells, screams would come from several locations in the room and she wasn't able to finish sentences."
Appearently they had too small of a venue (www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/Day-after-town-hall-debacle-charged-...)
"We actually did get close we got into the atrium, the a-c was nice for our baby, but we were still outside the auditorium, " Carlson said.
"People were all really, really nice until they shut those doors., and that's when things started to get a little bit crazy."
As a public service, Agit8r would just like to say; If you go to one of these town hall melees, DON'T TAKE YOUR BABY! O_O -
So they want to keep people out, and can't even manage that.
Sounds like the crowd that should manage a trillion plus dollar healthcare packate..
The fact that they aren't "wanted" and that dissenters are to be relegated to the back of the room, the front is "reserved" for democrats is enough in my book.
2010 change we need
2012 change we'll be begging for -
all that info was in that youtube clip? (I don't have good video capabilities, so I don't know)
It sounds to me like a poorly carried out last minute throw-together, and the "little people" on either side are not being heard.
Try to take your partisan earmuffs off for a moment and note that I'm not picking sides here. I'm saying that the whole thing is a disgrace. -
Transcript for you.
Woman: "However the folks who are obviously not supporters are outside the door.
Man: Not allowed in?
Woman: Not allowed in. And when they come in, they will be demoted to the back of the room.
Man: And the front of the room is reserved for somebody I don't know.
Woman: The DNC -
who are the "man" and "woman"
and what do they offer as proof? -
A democrat townhall goes down as such:
1. Listen to one person speak.
2. Ask questions about what the one person feels like speaking about.
3. Drinking the kool-aid from the big copper pot at the front. -
jhix...You forgot a step:
4. "Union thugs beat up anyone who diagrees with El Presidente. - Especially if they are elderly."
-
-
The man is the person shooting the video, you can see more of his reporting if you follow the link.
The woman is part of Castors Union supporters.
Proof of what, besides video evidence?-
So the obvious non-supporters are kept out as best they can... so if you show up with protest signs, you aren't getting in. That makes sense, given what has gone on.
the "front of the room" (?) is reserved. That's tawdry, true.
The real trouble here, is that the undecided constituent, and those who want an interaction with their legislator, simply aren't being heard. which defeats the purpose of a town hall meeting in the first place.
really unfortunate. -
Makes sense?
Let's rewrite this to show only the facts.
At a meeting listed as an "open town hall"
The obvious non supporters are kept out, or relegated to the back of the room if they manage to get in despite efforts to keep them out.
The obvious supporters are let in. And the ruling party sits in reserved chairs up front.
I wouldn't be surprised if i heard this from Cuba, Venezuela, Liberia, North Korea, or any other score of less than democratic countries. But in the U.S. it just sounds like someone made it up.
Unfortunately, that isn't the case. -
"The real trouble here, is that the undecided constituent, and those who want an interaction with their legislator, simply aren't being heard. which defeats the purpose of a town hall meeting in the first place."
The far right here can't seem to grasp that simple truth. They rather fight health care reform than spend any time trying to find solutions for the rising cost of care, the large number of uninsured or those turned away due to pre-existing conditions. It all seems to be about making this President Obama's 'Waterloo' -
ruling party? really? this Florida we are talking about after all.
Their isn't anything inherently wrong with a row for VIP's up front, if they are expected to participate on stage etc, though if they are taking up a lot of space just to be a partisan audience, that is indeed wrong. Though the zealous nature the opposition has shown in other meetings could explain the percieved need for a "buffer" between the speaker(s) and the "mob." In any case, these aren't functioning as town hall meetings. -
@RR
remember, to the right, democracy still equals anarchy
-
If you want to know what the left is up to, look at what they are accusing the right of...
It's funny because it's true. -
@Agit8r...I expected better than that from you. Usually you aren't prone to sweeping generalizations like that.
"remember, to the right, democracy still equals anarchy "
All these people want, these ordinary American citizens, is to be heard. But the left, and the drones, like ruin think it is funny when they are kept out. When their rights are violated. He wouldn't care if Obama put forth the idea that each American got a free box of band-aids and called it health care reform. As long as his messiah wants it, then it is gospel. But I really expect better from you, Agit8r.
@ruin...You think that because someone is opposed to Obama's health care reform that they are wrong. What? In your America the only people who can have opinions are the ones who agree with El Presidente? Yet you claim that the left, that the Democrats are the party and the philosophy of fairness. Tell me, how is that fair?
As far as pre-existing conditions. Let me ask you this, although I can almost guarantee that you won't answer. But let me try.
If you have a car with no automobile insurance and you get into a wreck, do you THEN go shopping for insurance? If not, why? If so, why would you expect any insurance company to accept you and pay for the repairs? -
'sweeping generalizations like... "remember, to the right, democracy still equals anarchy"'
That IS what Burke beleived, no?
And to be frank, I'm rather disappointed about the Nazi comparison.
The National Socialist party in Germany (like the Italian Fascists) adopted various ideas from German and English bourgeois socialism, as well as German Historical School/American System mercantilism. Their ideas on such subjects were not original.
And, for crying out loud, England and the U.S. rationed tobacco as well! o_0 -
Fair enough. But you lost me on the tobacco...
-
-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLpHbD5cy0s
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Q3p6jClQM
Lest i be banned, i'll refrain from commenting.-
What proud moments for SEIU Union bosses. They must watch these videos with misty eyes, thinking how great it is to be in Obama's America. Way to go El Presidente.
-
Banned for commenting?
Makes more sense not to comment for another reason: we have no context for these videos. They are deceptively simple: you think you know what you are seeing, but there is no reliable reporting to give you any details of what happened beyond the camera, who shot the film, and so on and so forth. So we're left with nothing but images to which we can attach our own meanings, as might have been the intent. -
So now even eyewitness video is hiding an evil agenda?? Maybe people are intentionally getting the hell beat out of them in order to make the peace loving SEIU union thugs seem like meanies. Yeah, that HAS to be it, good call mark.
-
meanies? As in George Meany?
-
LOL
-
George Meany? How about the Blue Meanie?
-
-
I grew up in New Hampshire, where the tradition of local self-government is probably stronger than anywhere else in the country, with the possible exception of a few other New England states. I'm not sure when the so-called "town hall meetings" entered our national scene, but they are nothing like a real town hall meeting. In those people discuss measures amongst themselves and decide how to spend money, what local ordinances to pass, and so on. (There is a separate, but similarly formatted meeting for the school budget.)
The meetings I witnessed could get heated, but everyone lived in the same town and knew everyone else, so there were also limits on incivility. It's this background that makes me look on the whole "town hall" format that I've seen with Obama, McCain, and other politicians in national office with skepticism in the best of cases, if not outright disdain. These are not town hall meetings. They are Q & A sessions, some of them open, some more carefully controlled, and apparently they are also opportunities for showmanship from people with an attitude problem. Town hall meetings? No, they're not worthy of the name.-
You live in New Hampshire. That explains alot.
-
No, I don't live there anymore. These days I'm in our nation's capital.
Not sure what NH explains to you, though. When I lived there, it was majority Republican, but that meant something different back then. I remember being shocked when Clinton took NH in '92. That's when I knew Bush had lost. (And yes, I was glad.) -
"The live free or die state," no?
-
Damn straight.
Now I live in the "No taxation without representation" jurisdiction, only I get taxed and have no representation. -
so, yeah... "that explains" everything.... yeah
-
You're mystified too, huh? Maybe New England is now on the right-wing Godless Unamericanism list, because gay people have marriage rights there too now. Course, that view would miss the point about why people now have those rights in that region.
-
But Mark, you can't really be free without theocracy! C'mon! o_0
lol -
According to Anok, the only ones that should have rights, especially rights of free speech are those left of center.
-
-
I got a real kick out of one woman who was crying about "getting her America back!!!"
*snicker*-
Yeah.....that comparison makes total sense *rolls eyes*
Godwin's law has been broken! -
"I got a real kick out of one woman who was crying about "getting her America back!!!"
*snicker*"
I seem to recall two posts by you where you wanted to fight for your America. Shall I post links? One was about Memorial Day and one was about the Fourth of July festivities in your home town. No one made fun of you, Anok. -
Yep. However I wasn't babbling incoherently about conspiracy theories, while sobbing into a microphone about how "My America" was "dead", now.
Hell, I didn't even do that when Bush was in office.
The woman was nuts - kinda like the church lady on that wife swap show. 'Member her? Carazy! -
Okay, but I just think that making fun of someone when they are standing up for their rights is, well stupid. No offense. I mean the method she chose might seem silly, but haven't we all made silly comments or said things in ways that later we wish we could change?
She wasn't bashing anyone's head in like the union thugs that the DNC brought in. I didn't hear you making fun of them, you only chose to make fun of a person who probably has never attended a protest in her life. -
According to Anok, the only ones that should have rights, especially rights of free speech are those left of center.
-
Well, I thought anarchists hated everyone...:P
-
I wouldn't make fun of violence, because violence isn't funny. But an adult acting like as if she just watched her puppy being slaughtered because they are discussing health care proposals, is.
*whatever* Erik. -
Okie dokie. And thanks, now I can't get the images of slaughtered puppies out of my head... Argh! You anarchists and your jedi mind tricks!
Curse the mask, I say! Curse it! -
I DO have a weird sense of humor - and watching someone go off the deep end for no reason - left or right - is funny as hell to me.
I also can't help but laugh because I'm supposed to be the resident conspiracy theorist! ME! But even I'm looking at these guys (and yes, that includes the 9/11 truthers) like "Woah, buddy, you done lost your damn mind!" -
Where did "her America" go?
I think it's a trend. Everyone wants to be emo like Glenn Beck -
I'm trying to understand "emo" and failing. I'm not sure the urban dictionary offers any help either (www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=emo). Care to explain?
-
I just meant melodramatic-depressive like the subculture.
-
Ah, then the urban dictionary was being sort of helpful. Thanks.
-
user generated content is hit-and-miss
-
Even in Congress dissension is only okay if it is the Democrats doing it.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mqSXsNJzRM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.floppingaces.net%...-
Relevance? None.
-
Relavance? Very relavant.I will type slow so you can keep up.
WHEN DEMOCRATS DISSENT IT IS OKAY. The video was an example.
-
-
I will be interested to see the police reports on all these incidents. Actually.
Here is another account which shows the other roganized movement which is trying to stifle any discussion:
' "They're hiding from their constituents. She works for us and needs to listen,'' Karen Jaroch, a homemaker and organizer for the 9-12 Project told the Tribune.'
www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/07/health-care-town-hall-turns-violent-tam...-
That and any actual findings on the part of judges. At the same time, this appears to be part of a broader echo chamber. It's not like we're dealing with Kent State, a march on Washington, or anything like that. In lieu of numbers, they're using the media to amplify their message. Part of the media is playing along, and part of it seems to actually be driving that message.
-
But if you tried to attend a public forum by your elected representative and were turned away, itimidated, or even attacked, then I believe that you would find it to be a much bigger deal.
-
For those who aren't familiar, 9/12 is Glenn Beck's tea-bagging astroturf front
-
Thanks for that useful tidbit, Agit8r.
-
Why the "tea-bagging" reference, Agit8r? Do you despise American citizens voicing their opinions? I know that Keith Olbermann on Countdown to no ratings keeps saying "tea-bagging," but then again one must consider the source. I mean that is about his level.
When the left protests, I don't call them names, or say they don't have a right to do it. As long as it is non-violent, I am all for anyone and everyone making their voices heard. While I did not agree with Cindy Sheehan, I applauded her right to protest Iraq. My feelings that she was using the death of her son in a way that detracted from what he gave his life for aside, she had and has every right to do so. The only thing I might say is that once we have soldiers on the ground, in harms' way, it is time to stop protesting and start supporting them. However, I feel that is a different topic or thread.
I just think that someone of your intelligence and normally thoughtful view on things shouldn't drop to that level or stance usually taken up by the far left loonies.
Why make fun? It demeans you. -
You do have to admit that they should have thought of a better name than "tea-bagging" though, right?
I mean... come on it does kinda hurt their reputation a little bit. 'Specially when the conservative politicians keep getting caught in sex scandals.... -
9/12 Project was involved in the "tea party" protests. Just stating facts here.
and yes tea-bags were mailed as part of that, and was referred to by media PROponents as "tea-bagging congress" -
@Anok...The first of those protesters this year referred to themselves as "Tea Party Protesters." MSLSD and other ultra left outlets started the juvenile "tea bagging" reference.
-
Yeah - I heard (and read) from a lot of conservative newsletters/outlets use the term tea bagging long before anyone started making fun of it.
But I mean... come on! -
Interpretation only says something about the interpreter.
-
OK, captain "smoke a rope".
-
So if I aim this one back at CSI, do I get an infinite loop? "Interpretation only says something about the interpreter" was his interpretation.
And that's a neutral statement. Hah! -
that's how I interpretted his interpretation of how to interpret what he interpretted as your interpretation... I got lost somewhere there.
What was being interpretted? Seriously!?! -
Beck's antisocial behavior.
Or something like that. There's this loud echo . . . -
How is he going to rule his own planet of his offspring if he's anti-social
-
-
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the implicit claims above that right-wing protesters are somehow being denied their free speech rights. Criticizing methods is not a denial of rights. Nor, if it happened, would stopping someone from disrupting a meeting, which is something that happens as a matter of course, no matter who is involved. And if I look at twitter, read this board, or consider the national media landscape, I don't see a bunch of Democrats tyrannizing Republicans.
Or are claims about denial of free speech rights the whole point of these protests? Is the idea to become so obnoxious that they will get shut down and then they can cry foul? I'm not talking about a political tactic here, since I don't see that playing well. I'm thinking more about a culture of martyrdom crossing over from Christian fundamentalists.
I'm not saying that this is the case, mind you. I'm just playing around with some ideas.-
"cracking heads" of war protestors is of course entirely appropriate
-
Well sure.
-
"Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand the implicit claims above that right-wing protesters are somehow being denied their free speech rights."
Agit8r and myself have both talked on BC about how elected officials filling up their rooms in their town hall meetings with only like minded supporters, or bussed in union thugs is wrong. When you aren't allowed into the room to talk to and listen to your elected official and it is done in a premeditated way that keeps dissension to a bare minimum, then how can you not see where peoples' rights have been violated. I mean they can still stand outside and shout, and that might give them their free speech rights in one way; but how then are they supposed to exercise their free speech rights in conversing with their elected officials?
I really don't see how this is hard to understand, unless you just don't have a deep belief in personal liberties and freedoms.
-
-
You have the right to free speech. You don't have the right to be disruptive to the point that those who are in the room for a legitimate reason can't hear or exercise their rights to free speech. Just as you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, your right to free speech extends only so far as it does not interfere with my right to free speech and my right to hear someone else speak.
As for the Nazi thing that Mr. Beck and Ms. Bachmann and others are yelling at the tops of their collective lungs: They wouldn't know an honest-to-God Nazi if one bit them in the ass. If this really were a Nazi thing, those protesters would either have been gunned down on the streets or hauled off to concentration camps by now, never to be seen or heard from again. Congresswoman Bachmann? Suddenly didn't show up for work today. Mr. Beck? Oh, he was hauled off the set right in the middle of his show after being beaten silly on camera.
Townhall? Forget about it. This bill would be law by now. No debate, civil or otherwise. Want to protest the fact that no one asked your opinion or tried to explain the bill to you? Nothing was more effective for the Nazis than to blow a protester's brains all over the sidewalk. Tended to change people's priorities real quick.
Net/net: This ain't even close to the Nazis, and I don't think anybody really ought to be going there. It's offensive. It's ignorant. And it's not even close to being the true reality.-
Well, however offensive you think it is, honest ordinary citizens are not being heard. A few youtube videos showing the frustration and anger of constituents does not an "angry mob" make. I agree that disruption is not what needs to be applied. But I also say that elected officials who refuse to have town hall meetings or only invite people they know ahead of time that agree with them is not representation that our democratic process stands for.
It is reprehensible that the DNC and our El Presidente are attacking these citizens for speaking out and voicing their frustration. During the campaign, Obama encouraged people to "get in their faces" and get angry. But now when that same emotion is used against his agenda, he reacts with condescension and verbal attacks. He also stands by when Peolosi and the far left element of the DNC do the same. One person had a sign with a swastika on it that had a "no" line drawn through it and Pelosi calls the people at the town hall meetings Nazis. Where is your outrage at that, mac? -
Exactly, macwilliams. The comparison is offensive. And if people feel like they're not being heard, there are ways to get heard. For starters, there are elected representatives, for this is a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. (I'm not counting DC residents like me, who have no voice in Congress.) There are also protests, which some on the right tried with tea parties, which I don't recall anyone putting down. Course those tea party protests were fairly small affairs, which might be the reason why people are going for volume instead of numbers, attempting to use the internet at the same time to amplify it. Maybe people making the comparison should visit the Holocaust Museum. That would shame them.
-
"Course those tea party protests were fairly small affairs, which might be the reason why people are going for volume instead of numbers..."
mark, either you are completely out of touch or you are just a liar. Thousands attended the tea parties. Police estimates attest to that.
"Statistics blogger Nate Silver, who trumped many organizations with his polling data during last year's election, pegged the turnout at 240,000. But that count included only about half the locations. The largest events drew close to 20,000 people, but some drew only dozens. A protest in Washington included about 1,500 people in a heavy rain."
www.csmonitor.com/2009/0418/p25s03-usgn.html
spectator.org/blog/2009/04/15/tea-party-numbers-continued
www.atr.org/updated-people-attended-tax-tea-parties-a3138#
Yeah, the tea parties were small...
And this image shows a map detailing where all the rallies were held.
-
You do know that we had 1.8 to 2 million here on Jan 20th, right? And how about comparing your numbers to those of more significant protest movements in the past, protests that brought change. A half million is a day of fireworks on July 4th in DC. I continue to be unimpressed.
But that's beside the point. You said citizens weren't being heard, and here you offer evidence of them being heard. So maybe you should stop all this whining about the poor, helpless, oppressed right. -
You have a lot of bottled up hate for the right, mark. Probably the product of the liberal indoctrination that is ever present in academia.
Some estimates have the numbers of the tea party protesters at closer to 800,000. I think that to fairly evaluate this, one must first understand that you have people who have never attended a protest or rally in their life finding themselves motivated to do just such a thing. Take that into account and the numbers are all the more impressive. These aren't chronic protesters, they're not lifetime rally junkies. These are everyday Americans who are fed up with the far left agenda that has had control of D.C. for far too long.
And if the fact that citizens aren't being allowed to exercise their right to interact with their elected representatives doesn't bother you, then that speaks volumes, doesn't it, mark? Did you get upset when people having anti-Bush t-shirts on got arrested at some of his public functions? I did. Granted I wasn't blogging then, but it wasn't right, IMHO. See, the basic difference between you and me, mark is this.
To me, wrong is wrong. It is wrong to arrest someone who wears a shirt that displays a message that is against the elected official at that particular public function. (Unless that message calls for violence against someone, then that is different. That isn't what we are talking about.)
It is also wrong to bus in like-minded people to take up enough space so that the elected official has no one who takes opposing views to what he or she is going to be discussing.
Short of threatening someone's life or safety, Americans have the right to say and display their views no matter what those views are. When that is trampled upon, the entire country is worse off for it. It was worse off when it happened during the Bush years and it is just as bad as what is happening now.
My question to you is this: Why does it not bother you? Is it because these people disagree with your point of view on health care? If so, then that is pretty shallow, don't you think? -
Actually, you probably can yell fire in a crowded theater now. The Supreme Court overturned the "Clear and Present Danger" ruling, during the 60's
-
If you're Limbaugh, you'd consider it a public service.
-
"My question to you is this: Why does it not bother you? Is it because these people disagree with your point of view on health care? If so, then that is pretty shallow, don't you think?"
Once again mark, you have avoided answering my question. This seems to be a pattern not only with you, but ruin as well. I guess you are afraid of direct, no-nonsense questions. That is a shame coming from you, one who rails against perceived "rhetoric."
-
-
I hate to annoy who think these town-hall protesters are not ignorant, but this little tidbit is too funny:
> At a recent town-hall meeting in South Carolina, a man
> stood up and told his Congressman to "keep your government
> hands off my Medicare," which is kind of like driving
> cross country to protest highways.
The source will anger some even more, so maybe it's best not to look.
Eyes closed?
Okay. It's Bill Maher at www.huffingtonpost.com/bill-maher/new-rule-smart-president_b_253996.html-
@mark
I rather dislike Maher for a lot of reasons, but a more perfect analogy could not have been made. -
Driving cross country to protest highways....
LMAO, spoken like a true couch general, ever hear of country roads? -
Bill Maher is a toad, a contemptible toad. When Politically Incorrect was first on, I was a fan. I admired that he brought both sides of issues to the debate. Kind of like a precursor to Fox News, lol. But I lost almost all respect for him when he called the 9/11 terrorists brave men. I turned the channel at that moment and never watched him again. I was glad he lost his show. When he came back on the airwaves, I watched a couple times, but his views have gone very, very far to the left. Then when he most recently called American a dumb country, I just wrote him off completely.
-
Olbermann actually had the clip of the man saying it the otehr night. (It was the first time watching his show for me, and man did I laugh my tuchass off )
It's like what my mother went through - our insurance is GREAT! - your insurance is a government run program!
"Get your hands off my medicaid" Buwahahaha.....*snicker* -
And apparently this was not a one-off thing, for the White House felt compelled to address the issue of Medicare here: www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
-
Woooow.... they've really honed in on the rhetoric haven't they...
of course, the kind of people who we see having tantrums and fits of hysteria on the floor at some of these meetings aren't going to believe it.
They won't believe it even after they've seen it, experienced it, and liked it.
Like my mother -
Of course not. This is more about getting the attention of the calm and reasonable and dealing with any doubts they might have in the face of the rumor- and fear-mongering.
-
I hope your Mom doesn't have internet access. I would hate to log on and see my daughter laughing at me like you are at your Mom.
-
-
The Irony is complete.
The Left elects a Community Organizer, then they complain when the right organizes the communities.-
LOL Yup. It is great. I never thought I would say this, but I wish Hillary had won.
-
-
The First Amendment reads,
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
> religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
> abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
> right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
> the Government for a redress of grievances.
In this thread I see a few emphasizing free speech. Apparently shouting people down and making it impossible for everyone else to do what they came to do, talk, is "freedom of speech."
In this thread I don't see much on the whole "peacably assemble" thing, except when I brought up the tea parties, which are a fine example of our constitutional liberties working, no matter how ignorant the talk of nazism by Limbaugh and others is (or the fact that these protesters have representation in the body that taxes them, but the citizens of Boston did not).
I even hear a hint of frustration about the seemingly unfulfilled right "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." What does that part mean in practical terms? Contacting your representatives and senators, I should think, since this is a reprentative democracy. There's also the White House.
Regarding this last point, I get frustrated, not just about my lack of representation in Congress as a DC resident, but also by the fact that insurance and pharmaceutical companies are treated as individual citizens with the same rights. No more, because they are the ones buying expensive seats at the table. Angry right-wingers need not worry about being heard. Their corporate cousins are doing their best to get them what they want.-
You once again presuppose a lot mark. Why would you think that I, as a 'right winger' think that ANY corporation speaks for me? That is preposterous and just left wing rhetoric. Unless you feel that the SEIU, AFL-CIO and other unions, who have also purchased their very expensive seat at the table and are treated as persons speak for you?
I don't know why I bother asking, you will once again ignore this question. You seem to be afraid to answer direct questions. Throwing rhetoric around is much safer and makes you feel a lot better I would imagine. -
Antics... didn't you say somewhere that Mark moves on once he feels he has lost an argument?
-
Yup and he did it again. Seems he and ruin both have the same MO. I knew my question would go unanswered. Yet it is funny, because I have answered every question put to me since I started blogging on BC.
I just am not afraid of answering questions. It is odd that they both rail the loudest against the supposed rhetoric of the right, but ask them a direct question and they go running.
-
-
Apparently there are more and less effective ways to communicate directly with one's representative and senators. I started a new thread on the issue, in order to remove it from the arguments here, since a discussion about experiences in this regards should be pretty much free of partisan politics, unless two people on opposite sides happen to be in the same district, which I don't believe is the case here: www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/talking-to-your-legislator
-
One blogger who sees heckling and shrill, in some cases even dangerous fear-mongering for what it is: griperblade.blogspot.com/2009/08/selling-mass-panic-to-fools-or.html (The piece is long, running past the ad in its middle.)
-
Summary for those that don't want to read the whole piece.
Yada yada... the right are more like Hitler than the left
Yada Yada, Anyone complaining about the "fishy" collection is a Moron
You can supplement the whole thing with:
I'm an Obama follower.. from thereon in it's the same old rhetoric. Obama is so great, those that oppose him are eitehr dangerous or should be labled as Nazis.
If you want to know what the left is up to, look at what they are accusing the right of. -
Well, of course. After all, I posted it and my central nervous system is being controlled by a small basement office at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
-
Might as well be, you all sound alike.
2+2=5.. repeat until you agree.
-
-
"Pelosi calls the people at the town hall meetings Nazis. Where is your outrage at that, mac?"
Actually, that's not what she said. Suggest you go back and watch the video of her comments. Appreciate the chance to set the record straight, though.
My other points still stand. Regardless of who calls who a Nazi, they're ignorant and offensive. And whatever is happening at these town halls still isn't even close to how the Nazis handled these little get togethers.
Now, about the other points:
"Some estimates have the numbers of the tea party protesters at closer to 800,000. I think that to fairly evaluate this, one must first understand that you have people who have never attended a protest or rally in their life finding themselves motivated to do just such a thing. Take that into account and the numbers are all the more impressive. These aren't chronic protesters, they're not lifetime rally junkies. These are everyday Americans who are fed up with the far left agenda that has had control of D.C. for far too long."
I'm not all that sure how many of them are professional protesters and how many of them aren't. Between reports that some are being bussed from location to location, and reports that some of them are GOP operatives and insurance company or pharma operatives, it's a little hard to get a handle on just who is who.
However, giving the benefit of the doubt on that score:
Assume for a minute that the 800,000 figure is accurate, which it may or may not be, depending on who is doing the estimating. There are approximately 207,500,000 elibible voters in the U.S. This makes those 800,000 approximately 0.3% of the eligible voters, assuming all of the 800,000 are eligible. This means 99.7% of the remaining voters are not protesting. So the 800,000, although something of a big number, is not all that big when placed in that context. Or, if you prefer, John McCain in the Presidential election got approximately 60,000,000 votes. That 800,000 represents 1.3% of all of the votes cast for John McCain. That means that 59,200,000 of those who voted for McCain, or 98.7%, are not out protesting. Again, the 800,000 seems like a big number, but it is not that big when you place it in context.
Now take the polling results from several reliable polls indicating that at least 72% of Americans want some type of health care reform. Again, doing the math, that makes 149,400,000 eligible voters in favor of some kind of health care reform, compared to the 800,000 who are protesting against it. 149,400,000 is more than twice the number who voted for John McCain, so it seems to be a pretty bipartisan issue at the grass roots level.
As for the far left agenda having control of D.C. for far too long, I believe the Republicans controlled Congress from 1994 through 2006, and I don't know that I can say that that period saw a particularly liberal agenda, especially in the years 2001 through 2006. In fact, wasn't Newt Gingrich the speaker of the house for awhile there? And wasn't there something called the Contract With America. And I think I remember Trent Lott in there somewhere, and Dennis Hastert, and...well, you get the picture. So I'm not sure what far too long means, exactly, but I don't think 2 years qualifies.-
She might not have outright said those people are Nazi's but she did write an OP-ED piece calling them un-American.
As far as the numbers, you do your math well. Grats. You are confusing the tea party protesters with the town hall protesters when you speak of people being bussed back and forth.
I was speaking to the tea parties, and I stand by what I said that they were pretty darn successful. Especially when you figure that they were scattered across the country and that there was no central organization to the parties; it is plain to see that they were a pretty big grass roots effort. -
In fairness - Pelosi gave the leftist protesters just as hard a time. Hence the nickname - Nancy "You aren't my constituents" Pelosi.
Regarding the tea parties - I wonder how successful they would have been had they tried to rally in one or two locations? Over the years we've had plenty of nationwide style protests - some small, some very successful. But the lefties also had a knack for being able to get hundreds of thousands together in one location for very large, very impressive protests.
That were simply ignored by the media
Of course, there is also a great deal of debate on just how organized the tea parties were - while many claim they were spontaneous, there was a lot of hype from conservative radio and Fox news drumming up support. And even then, only .3% of voters turned out.
If you do the math 800k/50 (states) 16k people per state turned out. More, of course in larger states, and fewer in smaller states. If you had a tea party in a maximum of 16 cites per state - that's 1,000 people per rally. (Give or take for per capita, of course), or a couple hundred citizens per city/region that are angry about this.
That's not really a whole heckuva lot of effort on the protester turnout -
No central organization!?!
teapartypatriots.org/
www.teapartypatriots.org/TownHalls.aspx
Just so we're clear, the event planned on 9/12 is being organized, perhaps even more intricately.
www.the912project.com/tea-parties-2/
teapartypatriots.org/Group/Martin_9-12_Tea_Party_Committee -
On twitter there is a mix of self-mobilization and organizers: twitter.com/#search?q=#teaparty. It is hard to identify astroturf, though, because you don't need an ID to start an account.
It would be interesting to study whether there is any causal relationship between the most obnoxious pundits on the air and what we can read on the internet or hear being shouted at people in these meetings. My own sense is that the relationship is very real. I can learn that so and so said this, and in the wee hours of the morning, someone pops up here echoing that theme.
At the same time, the limits of this media coverage is suggested by the limited impact that Limbaugh had in the primaries and main election. If he and others like him influenced a certain segment of this population, the circles involved were limited, even though—or perhaps also because—their fear, rage, and volume were not. -
Of course there is central Organization. If there wasn't you'd have groups of 2 people on this square, and 4 people on that street corner.
THere are people who are setting aside their time to rally support, and there are people who are setting aside their time in organizing the locations, getting permits, etc.
Without some kind of organization, nothing would happen. The mere notion that these protests could exist without organization is ludicrous. There haven't been a large scale protest of any sort that didn't have a measure of organization behind it.
One thing that shows difference between large backing and simple organization are the signs.
Look at Left protests, and you'll see large numbers of pre-printed and identical signs out there. THis is proof of money backing if anything.
Now look at the tea parties, and you'll see the real proof of grassroots, people are making their own signs and showing up.
I've been part of gathering people, and the closest thing i've seen to "uniformity" are lists of things you could write on your sign.
Not Grassroot
Grassroot
The fact that someone says "we are gathering, show up if you agree" isn't some proof of big money backing, and those that claim it is surely don't unederstand the basics of what a real grassroots movement is. Then again, when everyting on the left is organized by large organisations like Acorn, why would they. -
The signs for groups like ANSWER and such are actually funded by the donations of the people who attend or would like to help the rally/movement. There's no "big backer" there.
As are any busing fees or whatnot - noting that not all events (even on a large scale) have enough funding/donations to do even that much. There are just as many homemade signs and ideas at the leftist protests as there are at the rightist ones.
Heck, some groups go so far as to create their own papermache costume heads and garb and write their own "street plays" to be acted out during the protest.
That's about as homegrown as you can get! -
It's hybrid turf. I'll spot you that one.
-
-
One view of health insurance companies being behind these protests: gripernews.blogspot.com/2009/08/whistleblower-insurers-are-very-much.html
It is plausible, but it would be an incomplete explanation, as many of these people don't need the health insurance companies to concoct lies. They have vivid enough imaginations as it is.
Still, I do not understand why opponents of this reform prefer to argue based on lies instead of the facts themselves. If you believe government action of any kind is bad, you don't need any more than the facts, not lies about rationing, death panels, and so on. I also don't understand why they don't at least consider what the motives are of their allies.
Finally, I do not understand why health insurance companies do not see a potential boon in new customers. The only thing I can think of is an instinctive fear of change combined with the fact that this legislation will hold them accountable. This last point is probably the real big one. Moreover, apparently profits of some are going up even as the number of their insured clients goes down. (I take this statistical tidbit from the same piece.)
Of course, "town hall" protesters don't think this is what it's all about, and no amount of facts are going to change their mind. I wonder how many of them are also believe Obama is a racist Muslim who was born in Kenya and raised by socialist wolves?-
Probably not many, the birther movement is very small, whereas there are plenty of people who prefer INsurance companies over government healthcare.
www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/... -
Apparently the guy who is talked about in the blog post I linked to has been getting a wide audience. He appeared before Congressional hearings and NPR is covering his charges of indirect funding by health insurance groups of these disruptions of meetings between legislators and their constituents. He also talks about campaign finance. www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111786686
The guy's name is Wendell Potter, a former chief spokesman at the Cigna Corporation who was around in 1993 too.
-
-
"She might not have outright said those people are Nazi's but she did write an OP-ED piece calling them un-American."
"Un-American" does not equate to "Nazi". Actually equates more to "unpatriotic", which has been used a lot in the last 8 years or so.-
"Un-American" does not equate to "Nazi".
Did I say that it does? No. She did accuse them of carrying swastikas. -
Antics,
They DID carry swastikas, just like she said. What she forgot to mention was that they were Crossed over swastikas.
I guess our very own Nancy "Braun" Pelosi has a problem with people not liking "Ze national socialist party".. -
Thanks csi. I knew that the sign in question was a swastika with the "NO" line through it, but thanks for the pic. Helps to put an image with Pelosi's rhetoric.
-
Comparing someone to Hitler is pretty hateful... not to say that such isn't sometimes justified, but I'd rather save such things for when a president does something quite extraordinary like suspending Habeus Corpus without invasion or rebellion taking place.
-
Ouch.
(Course, Bush confined that to overseas, which is also where he confined his torture. Doesn't make it right, but even then the analogy doesn't work for me.) -
So are you comparing Lincoln to Hitler?
-
Civil War = Rebellion... hence the term "Rebels" o_0
-
-
Ron Elvinghas an interesting online piece on NPR's website today: "GOP Welcomes Return Of The Angry White" (www.npr.org/watchingwashington/2009/08/gop_welcomes_return_of_the_ang.html).
He compares the GOP's debacles and comebacks in 1964/1966 and 1992/1994, both of which, he argues, contain parallels for today. The GOP made its comeback in 1966 by going mainstream. In 1994, however, it was the angry white male, the one we're seeing today.
Of course, there are a lot of other factors in play, including the party's narrow regional focus at the moment, but '66/'94 analogy is useful for thinking about the GOP's options in relation to the current crop of angry white men we see on TV.-
I don't think that '94 was entirely about angry white maleness. There was also issues of cronyism and excessive incumbency that brought out the populist angst.
-
Good point.
-
First of all you link doesn't work. Secondly, there you go again dredging up anything you can find that makes this about race.
-
Thanks for pointing out the disabled link. If you looked in your browser address field, you'd see that BC placed extra characters before the h t t p. Remove those and problem solved: www.npr.org/watchingwashington/2009/08/gop_welcomes_return_of_the_ang.html
You ought to read the article. It takes you angry people seriously. And to say that angry white men are prominent is just stating the obvious. But it isn't saying that they all hate black people. Read the article and you'll get it.
-
-
This is what I don't like about the most excessive rhetoric: death threats to Obama and his family on a protest sign. (washingtonindependent.com/54885/death-to-obama-sign-pops-up-at-cardin-town-...)
And then there was the idiot protester in Portsmouth openly carrying a pistol, even if there was otherwise the usual NH civility in Portsmouth. (www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/08/12/william_kostric/)
This article goes into who the man is, and who his heros are. Ugly stuff.-
Oh gee, apparently there is also a "free state movement" designed to get libertarians to move to NH and help it leave the union. The Salon piece makes the connection. Here's the group's page: www.freestateproject.org/ Just what that state needs, though I suspect they'll find people in the state's less populous ares skeptical of outsiders and people in the state's more populous and Democratic areas outnumbering them.
It does remind me of a neighbor I had one winter who had moved up from Virginia so she could live with white people. Nice lady, but that comment blew me away. -
I'm just surprised MSNBC was able to land interviews the gun guy and the Russia lady. I mean...it's MSNBC. I thought MSNBC was evil liberal media to these types.
I'm not sure when these folks are planning to launch their revolution, but an altercation between law enforcement (and perhaps our military) and a heavily armed domestic fringe is starting to become more likely. I don't know how that altercation would go, to be honest. LEO's and Barksdale AFB guys in this town tend to sympathize with the movement, or at least the rhetoric surrounding it. In the midst of fighting, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of our own cross to the other side. -
I'd say that's too dark, except I remember the militia movement, among other things, during the Clinton years. And that Jack London quote coming from that gun-toting transplant to NH is downright scary.
-
I wonder how the New Hampshirites would like those nasty passports, border checks and tariffs?
-
Yeah, it would be bizarre to envisage the granite state as autonomous. It couldn't grow enough food for itself, let alone survive in other ways economically. It's economy depends on the rest of the American economy. But those kinds of practical matters don't matter.
These guys have nothing to do with New Hampshire---or even the GOP, even if their presidential candidate was a Republican, Ron Paul. They have a fantasy of New Hampshire (it's strong traditions of local self government) and think then that it's a haven for their kind. If they're given a welcome, that has more to do with the state's good manners than anything else.
They're also in a for a rude surprise when it comes to taxes. Property taxes are harsh, depending on where you live, because they're used to support education, among other things. At least they were, though the NH Superior Court did rule that the state needed to come up with a more equitable solution, so that the rich towns in the south would share the burden with the more rural towns. There's no state income tax. Nor is there any sales tax, though there is a room and meals tax to soak the tourists, though the residents also pay whenever they eat out. But the local property taxes are very real. -
"There's no state income tax. Nor is there any sales tax... But the local property taxes are very real."
that seems rather Jeffersonian -
Regarding the potential for violence, the AP reports a rise in militia movements. This doesn't make them the same as the people in these meetings, althoguh there was this guy with the gun. Gonna have to wait and see what wingnuts are capable of. news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_re_us/us_militia_movement
-
I wonder if the guy with the death threat sign gets sent away for as long as the cop-killer-wannabe-rapper
-
Arrest of another (?!) wingnut (this time in LA) who was threatening the White House:
hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_STANDOFF?SITE=TXDAM&SECTION=HOME&...
There was a standoff outside a federal building. Does the term "federal building" bring back memories? -
@Agit8r...which guy? I missed it.
-
up at the top of this sub-thread
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/town-hall-war#comment_1078457 -
Ah, okay. I was looking at all the pics and the only scary one I saw was the Blue Meanie...
But yeah, that guy needs to be arrested and get the same treatment as the rapper. A death threat is a death threat.
Since it was a threat on our President and the Secret Service are involved, I doubt we will hear much about what he gets. That kind of thing tends to get hushed and for good reason. The more it is talked about on the media, the more some nut job thinks he could do it better.
Make no mistake. I don't like Obama's policies and I call him on them a lot here on BC. I also have said that I liked the things he did that I agree with (credit card reform comes to mind). But I don't in any way, shape or fashion want him or his family harmed. I hope he lives a good, long life. I just wish he weren't President.
-
-
Commentary that views these summer protests rather more benignly, relating them in a humorous way to Woodstock and the "summer of love" forty years ago: "Welcome to the Summer of Hate": www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111846786
-
Good article here about Race, Lies, and Health Scares
www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/458119/race_lies_and_health_scares-
And you don't think that she is being racist when she says -
"For two or three generations, Republicans have defeated progressive reform of the health care system by hinting that it would mean redistributing wealth from whites to blacks." ???
No, I don't guess you would. But she really rails on white people in this article, I'll give you that much. I wonder if it is because she is black and understands how hard it is to be black?
Let's see who this defender of the minority is, shall we?
What do you expect from someone who thinks Michael Moore knows what he is talking about?
ruin, you need to expand your reading material...
-
-
I wonder how MT Governor Brian Schweitzer (a rather conservative democrat) will be dealing with the proceedings
-
oh, here's an article
"Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer asks the audience to be respectful. “In Montana, we can disagree on things but we are not disagreeable,” he said.
And he added a twist from Mark Twain: “There are lies, there are damn lies and then there are health care lies.”
www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26125.html
and one from our local paper
www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/aug/14/obama-brings-town-hall-tour-belgrade-...
-
-
Health care opponent calls for town hall violence via Twitter
A health care protester in New Mexico had been encouraging those following him on Twitter to bring their guns to town hall meetings — and use them if provoked.
rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/07/health-care-opponent-calls-for-town-hall-vi...
Armed and Dangerous?
www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/08/armed_and_dangerous.php
"Death to Obama" Sign Holder Detained by Secret Service
www.nbcwashington.com/news/politics/Death-to-Obama-Sign-Holder-Detained-531... -
A political cartoon portraying an announcement at a "town hall" meeting:
> In order to be fair, we will alternate questions between
> the badly misinformed, the rigidly ideological, and the
> actively hallucinating.
by Wassermann, The Boston Globe, reprinted in The Washington Post, August 15, 2009, p. A17, 8/10/2009. -
Regarding George Washington's “Rules of Civility and Decent Behavior”, which our originalist, allegedly colonial enthusiastic tea baggers have no use for, see gripernews.blogspot.com/2009/08/george-washington-weighs-in-on-health.html
-
of course! Washington was, constitutionally speaking, a loose constructionist. Heresy!
-
-
Town hall meetings strengthening one Maryland senator in his conviction that reform must absolutely happen, even as he considers exactly what his own priorities are: "Crowds' Ire Sharpens Cardin's Resolve for Bill," The Washington Post, 8/15/09, www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/14/AR2009081403484.ht...
-
He just feels safe because of the state he is in and also that his next election isn't until 2012.
-
Presumably the vote of each and every senator matters, not just those who you declare relevant.
-
-
-
As much as it's tempting to discount Maddow as both biased and the corporate competition, there is some truth to what they say of the rhetoric that is spewed.
That being said, her guest goes a bit far with the Lumping of people into one big hateful group, and even throwing in a "I know you are but what am I" with his comparing them to brownshirts.
Political movements and reaction tend to be nuanced, though there can be a tendency for good people with a valid sense of desent to fall in with a bad crowd as well. Perhaps a lesson here, to be had by all involved. -
I'm not a big fan of Maddow, but she doesn't even need to speak a word in this piece. Much of the evidence speaks for itself and the guest seems to offer an interesting perspective based on past views.
You're observations are quite sensible for an agit8r. -
it seems like I spend a lot of time un-agit8ing
-
Yeah, I am the one who makes personal attacks, ruin. You never do it, do you? How predictable for you, but also very cowardly. You let his comments in a youtube video be the instrument of your insults. Instead of having the balls to do it yourself. Typical for a far left loon.
I also find it hard to believe that you like someone who thinks Reagan was a great man. The liberal wienie Schaeffer likes Reagan, Goldwater and other great conservatives. Oh I know, since he said something about the evil bad Republicans you think it is okay to overlook that, right? As I said, how predictable for you.
@Agi8r...I agree with you, but I think he goes more than "a bit far." I see him as still trying to get out from under his father's shadow. So he resorts to these pathetic attempts to ingratiate himself with the far left. He knew that it would be lapped up by MSLSD and their audience. He also knows that drones like ruin will make him a patron saint of their hatred of the right. As usual, this liberal attack centers on racism. -
I guess someone here didn't want people watching these videos.
Here are the links again:
When you've got CRAZY people like these on the airways, it's no surprise why the ignorant and misinformed sometimes resort to violence.
Glenn Beck's Obama Derangement Syndrome
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNIQG7WXpSM
Are Fox News & The Republicans Trying To Get Obama KILLED?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJkNtDNl7jE
100 Days of "Fair & Balanced
www.youtube.com/watch?v=35eRxxZ-Ar0 -
Might have been that personal attack in your earlier post...
-
You gotta admit... the person they describe half way thru the second video sounds an awful lot like someone here.
-
Well, I watched that video and I didn't hear a reference to anyone I know. I mean if you were thinking it was a cheap way to insult me, then you were wrong.
I will admit, you probably thought it was clever, but really ruin it was a pathetic attempt. You don't know the first thing about me, other than what I have told here on BC. You don't know my background, who I am, what I believe in, how old I am; hell, you don't even know my race. You know I live in Illinois and have kids. That is it. From that you extrapolated that I am (according to you insipid video) a middle aged white guy who hates the left.
First of all, I don't hate anyone. For when you hate someone you give them power over you. The opposite of love/like is not hate. It is antipathy. That is how I feel about you, ruin. You mean very little to me, other than your being a tool that I utilize to get my points across. You are an easy foil and so predictable you are boring. I know that you will hit the report button on this, but I don't really care. -
Riiight.
-
-
I just joined the Tea Party movement. Does that make me a Nazi now?
-
Have a look at the articles.
-
Why would it?
-
According to mark, it makes you a hater.
And according to ruin...
And dingy handy job... -
According to nancy i am
-
for the last fricking time (I wish) Pelosi never said protesters were Nazis. She said that had signs with swaztikas on them, which was technically true.
-
How about Pelosi "implied" that the protesters were Nazis? She never made those types of assertions during the Bush years.
-
*decides this isn't worth the time*
-
*decides this isn't worth the time*
It's not. -
*rolls eyes*
I knew you wouldn't be able to resist.
-
-
I'm not a big fan of Maddow, either. She does however, have a valid point about the comparisons of Obama and the Democrats to Nazis. The deal with all this is, as I wrote in a piece on my blog, that Limbaugh and Beck and Bachmann and all the rest of them wouldn't know an honest to God Nazi if one bit them in the ass.
If the Nazis were really running the show right now, and if Obama really were Hitler incarnate, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Townhall? Forget about it. This bill would be law by now. No debate, civil or otherwise. We all would have read about it in the newspaper one morning. Want to protest the fact that no one asked your opinion or tried to explain the bill to you? Nothing was more effective for the Nazis than to blow a protester’s brains all over the sidewalk, or to have that person just "disappear" in the middle of the night one night. Tended to change people’s priorities real quick. Rush Limbaugh? One would be treated to gunfire in the middle of one of his shows, followed by an announcement that Mr. Limbaugh had met a tragic end. Glenn Beck? Hauled off the air in the middle of one of his shows, but not before he was beaten senseless on camera to send a message to everyone else.
It's loose talk. It's dangerous. It needs to stop.-
Loose talk like this?
Or this?
Good article with links to other examples of how when the left does it, it is okay, but when the right does anything even remotely close it is awful, terrible, loose talk that needs to stop.
www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612 -
It would be helpful to know the year and location. The year would be relevant, because there was a time when Bush was threatening habeas corpus. The presence of Tony Blair, though, suggests the main issue was the war.
Be that as it may, of course, using Nazi stuff is inappropriate in this context too. No doubt about it.
You do this a lot, I've noticed. When the right is behaving badly, you dig up examples from the time of the previous administration and say, "You did it too." It's as if your mother had taught you that two wrongs made a right.
But let's take a closer look at the parallel you aver. Above all else, the context has changed. Right-wingers are using their extreme speech at the same time as the number of extremist right-wing groups advocating or at least condoning the use of violence increases. And they're doing it as these extremist organizations make race a bigger issue than it had been in such circles. You already know the thread in question, where a lot of good information has been linked. www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/militia-movement I think you would also be hard-pressed to a find a major media outlet using this kind of rhetoric, as is the case with Fox "News" these days.
But you just keep bringing up the two wrongs thing, if it makes you feel better. Who cares if its not an actual justification for extremist rhetoric? -
No, my mother raised me right and I would thank you to not bring her up. That is crass, but about all I have come to expect out of you. I was pointing out that it is done on both sides of the aisle. If you can't understand that, then maybe you should look into getting a tutor or possibly the special education classes that are available in your area.
"I think you would also be hard-pressed to a find a major media outlet using this kind of rhetoric, as is the case with Fox "News" these days."
You mean like MSLSD or CNN or NBC or CBS? Hmmm, yup hard to find a major media outlet that uses 'that kind' of rhetoric. When Bush was in office those networks ALWAYS condemned what you see in the post above. Oh wait! No. They didn't. I wonder why that was? I wonder why only now they condemn protests? Gosh that's a stumper. -
I don't recall the reporting on these protests. Seems to me the anti-war demonstrations got precious little attention from anyone, especially in the early days of the war. Be that as it may, I wasn't talking about reporting. I was talking about how Fox News uses this rhetoric itself. (www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/militia-movement#comment_1082734)
Course, the thrust of my previous comment was about a much more sinister change in context, not just Fox's contribution to it. (www.splcenter.org/images/dynamic/main/The_Second_Wave.pdf) -
"When the right is behaving badly, you dig up examples from the time of the previous administration..."
I seem to remember the far left rallying cry when Bush was in office... How did it go again? Oh yeah - "When Bush lied nobody died."
Yep, only the right does things like that... And your refusal to address it only shows your support for things like that directed at people on the right. Evidently you think it is okay to call Bush a Nazi, but not El Presidente. -
*notes that his previous comparisons of Bush to Hitler, use of the term "ar-Biden-macht frei" in conjuction with the now VP's supposed support of manditory national service, and comparisons of Israeli military policies to Lebensraum, probably disqualifies him from further participation in this discussion*
-
-
"Last Temptation: An interview with Wendell Potter"
"The former mouthpiece for insurance giant Cigna divulges his role in misleading the public, the emotional day that led to his whistle-blowing, and what should really scare you."
www.guernicamag.com/spotlight/1207/the_last_temptation_of_wendell/ -
"I wouldn’t have stayed as long as I did if I didn’t believe that the company I worked for was honest and trying to meet the needs of people. I believed I was making some kind of positive contribution."
Now that is some heavy duty Kool-Aid. Though I suppose most of us have drunk it before -
I am all for people voicing their opinions and I'm not for the heathcare bill, but I do believe this debate should be civil and respectful.
Read the bill
www.FaithfulinPrayer.wordpress.com -
One segment of the Kojo Nnamdi Show today was called "The Culture of Health Care," and a part of that topic inevitably led to consideration of the current debate. The show offered some of the most cogent and thoughtful commentary on the subject that I have thus far read or heard: wamu.org/programs/kn/09/08/17.php#27660
-
Michelle Martin did a good editorial yesterday on her show, "Tell Me More":
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111950786 -
Barney Frank's townhall experience in Dartmouth, Mass. is worth reading about. www.stumbleupon.com/s/#4mZoRf/www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/08/barney_frank...
The piece also contains information about the origins of the Nazi Obama poster: Larouche. Enough said.-
why don't Jewish people like their policy stances being compared to Hitler...?
*scratches head*
o_0
-
-
with regard to the armed "protesters" outside the Obama healthcare rally in AZ, this may be where they get their ideas:
www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/05/gop-rep-we-need-might-an_n_164227.html-
Wow.
-
Are you being serious, Agit8r? Or are you just agitating?
-
Nothing is more threathening to those that would deny people their rights as people actually exercising them.
-
-
Believe it or not the guy in black in not Agit8r with a shave
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVS4Zgjm8HE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehuffingtonpost%...-
That woman's deportment was downright freakish.
-
what're the dropping into the Kool Aid now : [
-
40 years after Woodstock, a warning goes out over the loudspeakers about some bad acid . . .
-
lol.
Could be some aspartame that's been sitting in a hot shed at Rumsfeld's place in Taos for 30 years... who knows
-
-
I posted this on the militia thread, but it's relevant here too:
Good article on the relative silence of journalism in the face of rising hatred in this country: Charles Davis, "Unhealthy SIlence," www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/aug/18/unhealthy-silence/-
wp
-
-
ROTFL!
Jon Stewart exposes FOX NEWS once again:
www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-august-19-2009/fox-news--the-new-liberals-
Exposes? A comedian can expose someone or some entity? Maybe he makes fun of them. Like he does Obama, Reid, Pelosi and the rest of Congress. I think you are just so rabid to latch onto anything anti-right that you start believing that the Daily Show is a news show.
ruin, google satire. -
Good satire often reveals the truth, and Stewart offers first-rate satire.
FYI, a lot of conservative guests appear on Stewart for a reason: nymag.com/daily/intel/2009/08/why_conservative_pundits_love.html -
Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert use comedy as a vehicle for delivering political commentary. In this piece Jon shows the hypocrisy and the ridiculousness that is prominent on the right-wing propaganda channel.
-
You guys are too funny. Kinda feeble in your predictability, but funny..
When Steward makes a montage clip showing Fox news contradicting themselves, it's "satire revealing truth"
When i post a clip where obama flat out contradicts himself. It's "taken out of context"...
You are both incredibly consistent in your inconsistency. -
How was it taken out of context? The criticism Stewart made of Obama was dead on. I just added that he had a few other things to criticize that day.
Be that as it may, I'm glad you are able to amuse yourself. -
I hear that there is medicine that can help alzheimers these days.
Or do you just choose not to remember that a couple of days ago you said.
"Whenever you see a video like this you should ask yourself.... Why just sound bites and no context??"
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/obama-truth-doesnt-matter#commen... -
I do remember.... and you should question if the video is out of context. However, there is way more content presented here that demonstrates the points being made - Fox News is right-biased, hypocritical and it covers dissent differently depending on who is dissenting.
The video you posted showed TWO statements made by Obama back in 2003 that you thought supported the right's claim that public insurance would be outlawed. I accompanied my response with a link to Politifact that more accurately depicts Obama's current stance on a single payer plan. -
I can't remember every time I've criticize you, CSI. Nice work. I was thinking of your thread specifically about Stewart. Whatever.
-
@Stewart
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA -
Finally got a chance to see that piece. Excellent. I wonder if conservatives here dare to watch? It might make their head explode.
-
"Good satire often reveals the truth..."
Like when Chevy Chase played Gerald Ford as a bumbling clown? Yet Ford was a very athletic person. He trips on national television, so Chase runs with it. Where is the truth in that?
"While known predominantly for his actions as the post-Watergate president, Ford was also a highly decorated athlete. Playing center for the University of Michigan, Ford helped lead the Wolverines to the national championship in 1932 and 1933. Michigan went undefeated in both seasons.
Ford was the Wolverines MVP his senior year in 1935. He also was the captain of his football team at Grand Rapids South High School and was an all-state center in 1930, his senior prep season.
Former President Gerald Ford
Gary Newkirk/Getty ImagesGerald Ford was rumored to have a mid-teens handicap -- even in his 80s.
Following his graduation from Ann Arbor in 1935, Ford received contract offers from at least two professional NFL teams. Perhaps as an indication of where Ford would eventually end up, he spurned offers from the Detroit Lions and Green Bay Packers to instead attend law school at Yale. Ford put himself through law school as an assistant varsity football coach and a freshman boxing coach.
A member of the 1935 Collegiate All-Star football team, Ford's No. 48 jersey was retired on Oct. 8, 1994 during halftime of the Wolverines' game against Michigan State. His jersey is one of only five numbers that have been retired in the history of Michigan's storied football tradition."
sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2709062
Or maybe it was that Chevy Chase had another agenda?
"Chevy Chase didn't look like Gerald Ford and didn't sound like Gerald Ford. But in the mid-1970s, when "Saturday Night Live" first went on the air, Chase -- then a writer and cast member of the show -- made his impression of the president, rife with pratfalls and slapstick, the talk of the country.
He also made the president a butt of jokes, which was intentional, Chase told CNN in an interview.
"[Ford] was a sweet man, a terrific man -- [we] became good friends after, but ... he just tripped over things a lot," he said. "It's not that I can imitate him so much that I can do a lot of physical comedy and I just made it, I just went after him. And ... obviously my leanings were Democratic and I wanted [Jimmy] Carter in and I wanted [Ford] out, and I figured look, we're reaching millions of people every weekend, why not do it."
www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/TV/11/03/chevy.chase.snl/index.html
ruin and mark, stop being sheep and following everything the left puts in front of you. Where are your critical thinking skills?
"I can't remember every time I've criticize you, CSI. Nice work. I was thinking of your thread specifically about Stewart. Whatever."
csi, I think you hurt his feelings. LOL -
If only chase knew that someday Ford-like policies would be considered "liberal"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford#Domestic_policy -
So a superficial, literal reading of what Chase was doing proves that Stewart is wrong? Sometimes you still manage to surprise me with your powers of reasoning.
By the way, Ford had a better sense of humor than you: www.nytimes.com/2007/01/06/opinion/06chase.html?_r=1
And here's what Chase thought he was doing in those sketches:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16370028/
Oh yeah, Ford pardoned a criminal. Personally, I thought that was best for the country, but there were a lot of unhappy people, making Ford a perfect target. -
You could remove Stewart's part completely and most people would still draw the same conclusions - Fox News is right-biased, hypocritical and covers dissent differently depending on who is dissenting.
It's an excellent segment that is made even better with Stewart's delivery. -
Careful ruin, don't scrape your knees bowing before you lefty false idols...
-
Ruin,
You are right, the video DOES speak for itself, Just like this one.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST84DJMD_eM -
Yes, when he was trying to appeal to the Democratic base, he was a bigger supporter of the single-payer plan. But as we note, he still says that he'd prefer such a plan if he was starting from scratch.
So what we see here is a candidate who in 2003 was trying to appeal to a liberal electorate and today has moderated his comments to appeal to a broader national audience.
More detail can be found here:
Obama statements on single-payer
www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/16/barack-obama/obama-...
BOTTOM LINE: Single-payer isn't part of the current bills being considered. -
Bottom Line: uncivil republicans on this board and at these town hall meetings don't care about what's relevant when they're in attack and/or panic mode. If they can imagine something, then it is real in their minds.
-
You are absolutely right Ruin,
He does change his message depending on who he talks to. The problem is that he denies ever having had another message. Which of course is a lie.
And this is where the fun starts, because like the fox video, anyone who doesn't have their noses firmly planted up Obamas @ss, would see with equal clarity the exact same process. Say one thing now, another later.
But so far, I haven't seen Fox deny that they ever said it.. Obama has, that makes Fox wafflers, and Obama a liar. -
REAL BOTTOM LINE: Anyone who thinks El Presidente doesn't want single payer, totalitarian-style, Government run health care is either naive or stupid. Since ruin and mark always say they are so realistic, hence not naive...
-
"totalitarian-style" ???
Whether one agrees with such things or not, it is worth noting that almost every country in the "Free World" has some form of single-payer system.
Even Russia and China are moving in that direction...
www.marketresearch.com/product/display.asp?productid=2267409
www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1890306,00.html -
There's no point, Agit8r. Barney Franks response to a woman using a similar analogy in Massachusetts this week said it best.
(Already linked to it, but this thread is getting long: www.npr.org/blogs/health/2009/08/barney_frank_busts_loose_at_ra.html?ft=1&f...)
Exhibit A: www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/pan-am-103-bomber-to-be-released... -
I wonder when grassroots citizen dissent began using talking points
-
Well, the Communist party used to do something like this in various western countries. Only they didn't have their very own cable news program.
-
-
"Whether one agrees with such things or not, it is worth noting that almost every country in the "Free World" has some form of single-payer system."
Doesn't make it the right thing to do. I mean what do you call it when the government controls the health care of every citizen? Makes the citizenry extremely dependent on the government. -
I'm just saying that totalitarian is an exageration while at the same time noting that some totalitarian nations have a system more like ours...
...I'm starting to convince myself -
I just don't want to HAVE to turn to my Government for health care. I do not want my health and physical well being to be controlled by them. The governing body that controls health care, controls the citizenry.
-
-
From a new twitter user page:
> Ending SOCIALIST fire departments in America. No taxes
> unless YOUR house catches fire. Stop fascism. Live Town
> Hall Meeting coming soon.
twitter.com/angrytownhall
And on Facebook: "1 Million Strong Against our SOCIALIST Fire Departments"
www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111256528714
For those with a deficient sense of humor, yes, this is in fact satire.-
they jest, but some freakjobs beleive in this stuff
the same guys who brought us park-use-fees
-
-
[oops. wrong thread]
-
haha! classic
the Gubernator special -
Oh no. Looks like you responded before I moved my comment. Well, here's where I moved it: www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/militia-movement#comment_1094846
-
crap! oh, well..
-
-
"Obama birthers ate my love child."
blog.techfun.org/obama-birthers-ate-my-love-child-the-president-is-an-alien...-
"the tail-gunners"
so wrong, but so funny
-
-
A recent "town hall" event in my area with Howard Dean in attendance: washingtonindependent.com/56607/town-hall-attracts-array-of-protesters
The "intensity" argument of the GOP wears thin here, since supporters of health care reform showed up en masse to oppose the loudmouths. Meanwhile, the loudmouths are still making some very strange statements.-
it's too bad the "liberal media" blackballed Dean in '04
-
I don't know if he ever had much of a shot. And he did good work for the DNC.
-
Which Howard Dean do you mean?
The one who said this in 2003-2004?
"Government should not make personal medical decisions. (Nov 2003)
No single payer system, since it won't pass Congress. (Nov 2003)
If you want total healthcare reform, I'm not your guy. (Oct 2003)
Cover 42 million uninsured then reform healthcare system. (Jun 2003)
Improved economy is best fix for Medicare. (Jan 2004) "
Or the Howard Dean that wants Government run health care in the form of a public option in 2009?
"Dean, a physician, argued that a public option is fair and said there must be such a choice in any genuine shake up of the existing system.
"You can't really do health reform without it," he said."
Or how about choosing which Dean you are speaking of who said this about the economy in 2003?
"Politicians promising everything causes budget deficit. (Sep 2003) Balance budget, even if unpopular. (Sep 2003)
New social contract: Fairer government, not bigger government. (Dec 2003) "
Or the Dean that said this in 2009 about the stimulus and economy?
"It's cut -- CBO estimates that it's cut the reduction in the GNP by at least 1 percent -- that's a significant number -- and that the stimulus is going to do better things."
It just seems that he says what he thinks will garner him the best polling numbers. He was against government intervention in health care a few years ago, now he is for that. Also, a few years ago he was all for smaller government, now he is for bigger government in the form of the Obamacare and the stimulus.
abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=8287268
www.ontheissues.org/howard_dean.htm
video.pbs.org/video/1220714214/subject/957383727/topic/957388338
Kinda hard to keep track of what he stands for from year to year. -
we weren't cleaning up the financial wreckage of 8 years of Bush back in '04, but rather the wreckage of 4 years of Bush foriegn policy... a whole lotta difference 4 years makes
-
-
Another "town hall" where plenty of people in attendance were not mindless for a change:
"Town hall crowd jeers ‘death panel’ pushing GOP congresswoman"
rawstory.com/08/news/2009/08/28/gop-rep-bachmann-jeered/
hat tip: twitter.com/Wisco/status/3608044431-
how could that angry mob wanting to talk about healthcare not yield the floor to that tin-foil visor wearing guy!!!
-
-
Now some GOP candidates are holding "counter-Town Halls" (www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26491.html). Does this mean Democrats can attend and disrupt them and be praised for such activity by the right?
-
I think what they did before was counter-town-halling... o_0
-
Only if the right can beat them up outside and have the act minimized by the left.
-
but if you beat somebody while holding a weapon, that is a serious assault
-
That's ok, there were plenty of unarmed right wingers, well let them do the beatings. It should all be ok. And any injuries the target gets are just fake anyway.
-
It all comes down to how you want to be viewed by the Silent Majority... o_0
-
Something tells me they won't be silent for much longer...
-
Democrats should attend and hand out flyers that show all the misinformation that the right is generating. It should conclude with the question:
"If Obama and the Democrat's health care reform plans are so flawed on their own as opponents claim, why do those against reform rely on so much misinformation to argue against it?? Demand your representatives tell you the TRUTH." -
We have an exclusive photo of one of the Democrats debunking the GOP lies at a recent Republican town hall meeting. This development is ruinous, I tell ya!
-
OH now it makes sense.. I wondered where we'd see him next.
"Everything is fine, I guarantee you, there is NO opposition to the healthcare plan"
-
-
wp
-
One liberal group offers kudos to the self-righteous, right-wing townhallers: Code Pink. www.politico.com/news/stories/0809/26607.html
-
Anok's account of her own visit to one of these meetings: identitycheck-anok.blogspot.com/2009/09/my-experience-at-town-hall-meeting.... (She listed this on another thread, but we need it here too.)
Add Your Comment
Login to leave a message.
